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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#171

Post by Consultant32452 »

beachy wrote: post #56
Consultant32452 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

I live in a country with universal healthcare and it works pretty well much of the time, so perhaps I don't have the same perspective as you. But some of your examples ring a little extreme. Do you really suggest "having a big family" as the way to survive health problems and retirement? Because that's how it works in some (e.g.) SE Asian countries, and life there can be very harsh indeed if you strike adversity and…

>I'd rather have the government bulk buying my meds, and lighten my overall footprint on the planet, rather than harking back to ancient times when there was little or no government, and family was everything

That's a perfectly respectable opinion. And you and I probably are in agreement on the government's role on many of these kinds of social issues. However, it's completely possible to both support those programs and simultaneously understand their impact on social fabric.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#172

Post by observation »

observation wrote: post #91
mbroncano wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Italy has next to no cohesion References? In my personal experience that's far for accurate. If anything they are an extremely nationalistic country. Living half way between the US and the EU has taught me otherwise - that the kind of cohesion between say Portugal and Sweden is surprisingly solid - once you know where to look e.g. social values, political views. Trying to do the same with someone from deep Texas an…

> References? In my personal experience that's far for accurate. If anything they are an extremely nationalistic country. Turkey is a nation that is even more nationalistic and they have very serious trust issues with their fellow citizens.

It's not a value judgment. It is a fact. Plenty of polls, references and other evidence exists. Or ask any Turk.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#173

Post by observation »

tisdy wrote: post #115
observation wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could be kin selection. In the past people lived closer to and interacted more with people of similar genetic ancestry. The real question is why wouldn't civic qualities decline. You can look at this on an economic lens - people don't need to depend on familial relations as much because of money. You can look at this with a racial/ethnic lens - more genetic variance reduces cooperative behaviours (see Charles Murr…

> Should we genetically manipulate ourselves to increase our pro-social behaviours? It seems clear that if society flies apart then all the critiques I've mentioned will be true simultaneously, I do not see how that can plausibly be positive. What about genetic intervention? You had me and then you lost me.

Do you mean you don't agree or that you don't see what I meant?

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#174

Post by observation »

crispinb wrote: post #112
observation wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European countries are much smaller than the USA. I realize that within the USA there exist differences but I think your population centers are far larger than ours. Europe has a larger population but it is very dense with small, medium and then rarer large communities (similar to Japan I think). The USA appears to me (this could be quite wrong) to have large, very large and then sparse communities. I wish I could su…

The relevant comparison is amongst all the wealthy nations (European, N. American, Asian & Australasian), not "USA" vs "Europe" (the various nations constituting the latter have highly divergent social policies). There are many differences among these nations. Some are densely populated (the Netherlands), some sparse (Australia). No comparisons I've ever seen amongst them however remotely suggests that as you add mor…

This is where the rightist points out that most positive examples historically had ethnically homogeneous populations and that those populations with growing minorities also are developing integration problems that are usually blamed, perhaps scapegoated, on social welfare policy.

Do you have a deconstruction of that?

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#175

Post by cmurf »

SpikeDad wrote: post #165
cmurf wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my view Trump has already done more damage in 8 months than 8 years of Reagan, and in the end will far exceed it. The sheer damage being done at the State Department alone will take a decade to recover from already.

If you think State has been damaged you really don't want to see what's happening at EPA.

I'm aware. But the damage EPA can do in the short term is limited compared to what's already happening as dictator think Trump is on their side, and we pull back from generations of aggressive rhetoric and policies supporting free speech, free press, due process, minority rights, and so on. Non-combatant will lose their lives because the U.S. is turning its backs on problem areas of the world, and it's not going to result in some incentive for those people to violently overthrow their dictator.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#176

Post by cakedoggie »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #117
cakedoggie wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So according to you, NO ONE takes care of their neighbours, NO ONE helps anyone in their family when they need it, and NO ONE does charity work, because the government know fulfills that roll. But we can all plainly see that this is completely wrong, and people do do all that.

As with virtually every case of the use of "everyone" when I said everyone stopped I did not mean it literally. And yes, families are far more likely to be broken today than in decades past. The elderly are more likely to be dumped in a home somewhere. Welfare has ravaged families. The single motherhood rate is 8x what it was in the 50s because we incentivize broken families. Over 50% of adults are single now. That's…

You could do what a lot of people do, and don't use the word everyone when it is not the case, or not even close to being the case.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#177

Post by rusk »

smokeyj wrote: post #169
rusk wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Game Theory, is based on the premise that all individuals are selfish. It makes sense in an atomised society, where all relationships are utilitarian. It's an economic theory, not a sociological one, and it breaks down once you factor in actual "society" as a premise. If you take the position that society exists first, then the individual rather than the other way round it all becomes quite messy an unwieldy. A socie…

> Game Theory, is based on the premise that all individuals are selfish Wrong. Selfish strategies aren't sustainable. Why should I continue with anything else you said? Your basic premise leads me to believe you don't have a rudimentary grasp on game theory, economics, psychology or sociology. > If you take the position that society exists first Yeah don't do that. Reason from first principle first and work your way…

If you hover on that cartoon the alt text says "On the other hand, physicists like to say physics is to math as sex is to masturbation"

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#178

Post by rusk »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #160
rusk wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's this "we" business? I'd definitely invite my neighbours in if their house was flooded and they were out of options. I pay more than 50% tax when all is told. What's wrong with you?

I used "we" to reflect we as a society, as the original article was noting a the general decline of cooperation.

Sorry if I misread you. Unfortunately your comment found harmony with a prevalent libertarian chorus.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#179

Post by _Tev »

observation wrote: post #174
crispinb wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relevant comparison is amongst all the wealthy nations (European, N. American, Asian & Australasian), not "USA" vs "Europe" (the various nations constituting the latter have highly divergent social policies). There are many differences among these nations. Some are densely populated (the Netherlands), some sparse (Australia). No comparisons I've ever seen amongst them however remotely suggests that as you add mor…

This is where the rightist points out that most positive examples historically had ethnically homogeneous populations and that those populations with growing minorities also are developing integration problems that are usually blamed, perhaps scapegoated, on social welfare policy. Do you have a deconstruction of that?

Actually all mentioned countries have sizeable immigrant minorities (except Denmark I guess).

I'd say burden of proof is on the side claiming "developing integration problems" and such in Australia / Sweden / Germany. Without any data it seems like empty rightist populism.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#180

Post by _Tev »

hueving wrote: post #131
ako wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's called leading by example: do you want a government that shows people it's important to care about others, or do you want a government that doesn't care about it's people? A government that sets the example by lying, ignoring people that can't pay healthcare, can't pay for education, and basically shows it's all a fight about who gets to keep most money? What example would you have citizens rather follow? Also,…

It's coercion regardless of democracy unless everyone is voting 100% the same way. If 60% of the people vote to tax everyone and use that money to bomb the moon, the remaining 40% are going to feel coerced into supporting it. The government forcing people to support things is not leading by example at all, because any other organization would be breaking the law if it tried to force support. How would you feel if the…

This is nice example why are some people less cooperative. Everybody paying for something that majority wants is labeled as "coercion". So "if I don't like I should be able to not cooperate". And we end up with game theory and tragedy of the commons.
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