Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble • Hacker News Board

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#171

Post by manmal » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:31 PM UTC

opencl wrote: post #158

closeparen wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Did everyone suddenly forget all the un/underemployed college graduates we've got? Are they stupid, too? I think you'll find the HN consensus is that they're stupid (or were tragically misled) for going to college in a major other than computer science or engineering.

There are plenty of CS/engineering majors who end up un/underemployed too.

Here in Austria, you have to behave really bad to not make a decent living if you can code, or at least pretend to be able to code. Developer conferences are _flooded_ with recruiters and CTOs trying to recruit.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#172

Post by nitrogen » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #162

tinkerdol wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Mobility and a willingness to learn new skills seems to prevail. It's what other generations have done, millions of immigrants (my parents included). For an individual this might be a solution (even for me! I've moved around lots too) But for a whole society it's not. Especially when we seem to be hearing similar stories across thousands of towns and cities. Is everyone supposed to move to the bay area, NYC, Boston,…

The answer to your last paragraph, for the majority of people, is yes. That's how urbanization looks like. That's what the other generations have done. That's how it worked a hundred years ago, with a huge portion of people leaving countryside to relocate in urban centers, that's how it transformed China recently (uncountable millions of people moving from inland farming to their east coast manufacturing), that's how…

...less services at a much higher cost...

While the "less services" part is sometimes true, in semi-rural/sparse suburban areas it's often possible to get quite a bit more for a lot less. Car maintenance, food, land, recreation, all much cheaper outside of the major urban areas and high-cost states. This is yet another obstacle people face when trying to move to a big city. They can't afford to pay twice the price for half the food.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#173

Post by icebraining » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

nether wrote: post #136

bmwe30is wrote: post #30

>Some are rooted, embedded in their communities; and some are trapped — because housing is unaffordable where the better paying jobs are. And the jobs that are high paying are not the jobs they built their lives on. There's some texture and nuance to this statement. I remember on NPR, they interviewed a lady whom mentioned similar sentiments; her and her husband had built a family, worked in the blue-collar industry…

These people don't want to move because they value community and social support over economics. This attitude is baffling to HN because it defies quantifiable metrics unlike money. Seeing everything as an economic problem is the essence of greed.

Actually, economic models often include such concepts as community and social support. In fact, they can often be quantified too: you can measure what's the necessary increase in salary to convince people to give them up.

There's nothing "greedy" about trying to formally model a situation, which is what seeing as an economic problem is about.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#174

Post by slackingoff2017 » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

stephenbez wrote: post #169

microcolonel wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we pillaged the top 1% and distributed their wealth evenly the entire rest of the population would get close to a 100% raise. That's how filthy rich the top 1% are. The problem with this, of course, is that the rich would simply leave. They are the most attractive to rob, and the best prepared to escape. In addition, "the 1%" is not an exclusive club; most people (currently) have a pretty good chance of entering…

I assume you meant the top 10%. In the US 56% of people will spend a year or more in the top 10%. 12% of people will spend a year or more in the top 1%. http://www.aei.org/publication/evidence-shows-significant-in...

I had no idea that 12% of the population makes top one percent income for at least a year of their life. What causes so many of these people to fail?

How could there possibly be so many jobs that offer that kind of income. Or maybe it's that most jobs offering high income have short tenure..

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#175

Post by morgante » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:49 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #159

tylerjwilk00 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're still not quite getting it. If people have to choose between going into debt from a finance charge or starving on the street with no roof over their head they will choose the former. It's not about financial education it's about hard choices of the underprivileged.

I'm not talking about starving on the street, I'm talking about everybody in US using credit cards for payments and repay. I'm talking about shops offering their own credit cards. You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. And our credit gets instantly paid by our normal bank account. For us, a credit card is the same as a debit card but with…

> You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad.

To me, that's just evidence of how backwards many Europeans are in their approach to credit cards.

You seem to have an attitude that credit cards are inherently evil. They're just tools, which can be misused (and put you into debt) or used for maximum convenience (accruing rewards and protections along the way).

I challenge you to explain why the easy availability of credit and a highly functional credit market is a bad thing instead of throwing out blanket statements like that credit scores are "crazy."

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#176

Post by icebraining » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:51 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #135

isostatic wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand I was listening to a podcast when I popped into boots to buy lunch. Fairly busy so there was a queue, I drew the short straw and got directed to the legacy kiosk. This means having to pause what I was listening too, lose concentration, and switch into conversation mode for no benefit at all. Ikea is simply far easier to self-scan. Back in the olden days you could scan your shopping in the supermarke…

One of the problems with grocery stores specifically is that I buy a fair bit of stuff that isn't bar-coded, especially produce. I also guess that I'm not so much into sticking earphones in when I'm out and about. (And I also do a sort of weekly grocery shopping when I'm not traveling; no especially good delivery options in my area and not sure I would routinely use in any case.)

Funny; in more than one supermarket here, you're supposed to weigh the produce yourself using one of these[1] before getting to the register, even before the self-service checkout appeared.

[1] https://www.tradebit.com/usr/stock-photos/pub/9002/623344.jp...

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#177

Post by huac » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #165

koonsolo wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not talking about starving on the street, I'm talking about everybody in US using credit cards for payments and repay. I'm talking about shops offering their own credit cards. You know when US people use their credit card? Every day. You know when Europeans use their credit card? When abroad. And our credit gets instantly paid by our normal bank account. For us, a credit card is the same as a debit card but with…

We just have other types of debt. I know so many people paying 120-150% of the price of their TVs, vaccuum cleaners, kitchen appliances (like the €1224 Thermomix, which they've somehow convinced everyone must have), etc thanks to loans offered by subsidiaries of large banks and pushed by the shops.

This is basically Affirm's business too.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#178

Post by PeterisP » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:53 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #172

PeterisP wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to your last paragraph, for the majority of people, is yes. That's how urbanization looks like. That's what the other generations have done. That's how it worked a hundred years ago, with a huge portion of people leaving countryside to relocate in urban centers, that's how it transformed China recently (uncountable millions of people moving from inland farming to their east coast manufacturing), that's how…

...less services at a much higher cost... While the "less services" part is sometimes true, in semi-rural/sparse suburban areas it's often possible to get quite a bit more for a lot less. Car maintenance, food, land, recreation, all much cheaper outside of the major urban areas and high-cost states. This is yet another obstacle people face when trying to move to a big city. They can't afford to pay twice the price fo…

This may depend on the location, but for me the pattern is that services are much cheaper in the rural areas (including e.g. eating out) but goods are more expensive, including food - e.g. bread and butter will be noticeably more expensive in the rural small store than in a large town megastore. So if you're wealthy and consume lots of services of others, then that's a nice place to live; but if you're poor and would rather do everything yourself, then the basic necessities (except rent) are more expensive. Getting your oil changed is cheaper than in the big city, but buying oil to change yourself is more expensive. Getting dinner made by someone else is cheaper than in the big city, making dinner yourself is more expensive.

So (in my situation) if you're living in a rural community, you're spending less on your own community (and getting less from them), and spending extra to the other communities. Which is not that nice for the economic health of your community.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#179

Post by icebraining » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:56 PM UTC

microcolonel wrote: post #90

slackingoff2017 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is welfare with a different name. The results will be the same. Some people will sit on their asses and never work a single day but the majority of the population would keep working. The extra money would become meaningless because prices would adjust to accommodate it. We have to keep in mind that you can't just create money and hand it out and make everyone rich. If everyone had 10x as much money prices would e…

> If we pillaged the top 1% and distributed their wealth evenly the entire rest of the population would get close to a 100% raise. That's how filthy rich the top 1% are. The problem with this, of course, is that the rich would simply leave. They are the most attractive to rob, and the best prepared to escape. In addition, "the 1%" is not an exclusive club; most people (currently) have a pretty good chance of entering…

The problem with this, of course, is that the rich would simply leave.

The rich can leave, but the profits their companies generate locally can still be taxed. And they can be taxed more when the money gets sent to wherever those rich people went to.

Re: Annual note to self: most of the world exists outside the tech bubble

#180

Post by morgante » Sat, Aug 12, 2017, 9:58 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #154

dageshi wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A fundamental understanding that not everyone can get positions at those companies because those companies will always take the top 30% (or whatever) of people with skills they desire. If everyone decides to take your approach companies will simply become more selective, not employ more people than they need too, no matter how good they are.

Not just the top X%, but the top X% living within commuting distance. There may be some interest in relocating specific highly desirable individuals, but they will already be industry insiders. Industry outsiders will not get relocation benefits. The problem is that jobs have been offshored to increase profits. You really have to think about this to understand it. The Harvard Business Economy has made it impossible f…

> There may be some interest in relocating specific highly desirable individuals, but they will already be industry insiders.

That is not in any way my experience. For most companies willing to do relocation (including almost any good tech company), the interview bar is the same regardless of your current location. If they decide to hire you, they'll pay for your relation—especially since it's a blip compared to your total comp as a developer.