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The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

theglobeandmail.com

171–180 of 684 posts

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#171
From below (I wanted to make sure this didn't get hidden under a downvoted comment):

>I fail to understand how a memo calling for MORE diversity can get headlined as "anti-diversity memo" on all big media outlets. Do journalists even do independent research anymore or are they just regurgitating whatever reuters send their way without scrutiny?

The author is referring to psychological diversity, in other words, Google should be more receptive to diverse viewpoints. This is both true and not true. Yes, we should listen to others and understand, but that does not mean we should accept and value everyone's viewpoints. To invoke Goodwin's Law, perhaps we should be more sympathetic to the viewpoints of Nazis? How about white supremacists?

There are viewpoints that do harm people within society, and this is one of them. Strip this down, this is the basic "woman's nature" argument that was used for years in the past to keep women barefoot and in the kitchen. The underlying claim that women are bad at tech is ridiculous. As mentioned below, the early programmers and data entry workers were women as it was considered "office work". I'll also throw out names like Grace Hopper and Ada Lovelace. Read a site like Godel's Lost Letter, and Lipton always points out women who have made contributions to the field. I even recall an article about a house wife who researched new fractals. Women have been engaged in science, technology, engineering, and math (and medicine) since the beginning. They were male dominated because people held the viewpoint the author does, which is essentially, "It's not a woman' place". Bullshit, plain and simple. This memo does not call for more diversity. It may cite scientific research (yes, men and women are different physically and psychologically), but it calls for the same status quo that initiatives like the ones the author lambasts are trying to overcome. Are they perfect? No. but they are a step in the right direction. We need to understand these difference and adapt to them not use those differences as a way to exclude.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#172

The article hides a common but incorrect assumption. Look at this paragraph: > As mentioned in the memo, gendered interests are predicted by exposure to prenatal testosterone – higher levels are associated with a preference for mechanically interesting things and occupations in adulthood. Lower levels are associated with a preference for people-oriented activities and occupations. This is why STEM (science, technolog…

> So why aren't the management layers of tech companies composed of mostly women?

The article does mention something about stress resistance, which would be an explanation. Of course, the best managers are able to avoid stress altogether by being effective managers.

There's also something I read elsewhere that men are / can be more competitive; both would explain why there's more men at the top, alongside blatant sexism / gender discrimination.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#173
I think science is a bit hyperbolic a term for this fiasco. More like mere statistics at best and we know how statistics can work out.

Calling psychology or psychiatry a science is a generous proclamation. None of the above practitioners, including a neuroscientist, neurologist, or a cognitive scientist, can explain completely why someone can look at a shot of whiskey, know it is an expensive whiskey, know how to balance the shot to their lips, then prepare for the burn, and then swallow it while hoping they will get "lucky" tonight but feel lousy tomorrow all at the same time.

We're not there yet when it comes to classifying humanity into "phylums" or categories via science.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In modern days, suppressing free speech is 90% a leftist thing.

you might want to step outside friend, your 4chan is showing

Anecdotally, I've noticed more people from the left of the political spectrum being less tolerant of any view that doesn't mirror their own.

Note that I'm not saying all. And, people can be left on some issues, and even then, the degree varies.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#176

The article hides a common but incorrect assumption. Look at this paragraph: > As mentioned in the memo, gendered interests are predicted by exposure to prenatal testosterone – higher levels are associated with a preference for mechanically interesting things and occupations in adulthood. Lower levels are associated with a preference for people-oriented activities and occupations. This is why STEM (science, technolog…

> this tweet puts it succinctly:

When people have a scientific theory and that theory can be shown to not be good at predicting the world, it is still science. The point is to find a better theory, one which predictions better match observational data.

So what other theories are there? One that the memo mention in that controversial list is that men are pushed (incentivized) to seek higher earning. So lets put out a few predictions here. At average, jobs with higher risk and higher earnings should have more male applicants seeking them. Promotions that results in pay increase should be demanded by men more even if that risk their current job position. When there is a choice between benefits or increase pay, me should be statistically biased towards increased pay.

Is that theory better or worse? depend on the observational data that can either confirm or dispel the predictions. Personally I am more convinced by the second theory than the first, but that is purely based on the data. Make a better theory and provide convincing data and I would instantly change my mind. At that point the second theory should be abandoned with the same speed that I abandoned the first one.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider the Medium piece she cites: https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-man... Point #1: "I’m not going to spend any length of time on (1); if anyone wishes to provide details as to how nearly every statement about gender in that entire document is actively incorrect,¹ and flies directly in the face of all research done in the field for decades, they should go for it. But I am neither a biologis…

You haven't so much responded to my comment as used it as a coat rack to hang an unrelated argument on. I didn't cite Zunger's blog post and don't really understand why people like it so much. I'd prefer not to discuss it here, and thank you in advance for not demanding I do so.

If that's what I did, I didn't mean to. I was primarily addressing your opening paragraph:

> It picks out a small subset of the claims made in the document, discards the context and all the other claims, and then harangues us for having a problem with "science".

I'm claiming that the reason she does this is because it is the number one point cited by many of the detractors, and it prevents us from getting into the more interesting and relevant questions.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science by definition can't be sexist. In science there is no place for prejudices, beliefs and biases - only facts. It's human attitudes interpreting these facts that can be sexist, racist and so on. Second, the author didn't argue there are differences between genders or sexes that make one unsuitable for a given task. That's one of the most gross and unfair misrepresentations of the memo.

> Science by definition can't be sexist. Of course. But depending on context the use and quoting of it sure can. I'm sure there is plenty of evidence of physical difference betweeen races, and there are reasonable ways to use those scientific results - and there are racist ways of using them. Doesn't change that > Second, the author didn't argue there are differences between genders or sexes that make one unsuitable…

Well I can tell you exactly what you misunderstood: The English language. You are making shit up, because at no point in this whole memo did the author use the word "unsuitable" or "suitable" AT ALL. AT NO POINT. Yet, people like you constantly keep quoting him saying "genders or sexes that make one unsuitable for a given task". Go back to school, I am seriously losing tolerance with this stupidity. Enough is enough. Don't make up shit. Show me an exact quote where he says something sexist and explain it. Don't make sweeping lying statements like this.

Re: The Google memo isn’t sexist or anti-diversity, it’s science

#180

I'm surprised greater attention is not focused on the fact the "science" is in the midst of a reproducibility crisis. This is a big issue in the hard sciences; I can only imagine what it's like in the squishy science of gender behavior. Tying your reputation to such a soft foundation is just inviting trouble.

The people-things orientation has an extremely large effect size for social science. The Su et al. meta-analysis from 2009 found an effect size of 0.86 with N > 500,000 participants. Lippa (N > 200,000) found an effect size of 1.40.

http://sci-hub.cc/10.1111/j.1751-9004.2010.00320.x

If you don't believe the research is solid, please post some convincing counter studies.

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