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Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

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Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#171

Post by brown9-2 »

bronz wrote: post #119

the author of the memo is completely correct and, as others have said, his memo is drastically misrepresented in the coverage it has received. he simply points out that women could have less desire to go into fields such as cs because of their biological makeup. he never says that women should leave google -- he only says that trying to reach a perfectly equal distribution is misguided. perhaps those who are red in t…

Try replacing "men and women" with "different skin color" and see if the idea that different groups could have different innate desires still makes sense.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#172

Post by chillingeffect »

tptacek wrote: post #110
wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

What else is the American mind unfairly closed to? Why is "women are, in the the large, excepting some outliers, biologically disfavored to become programmers" the threshold issue? What else should we be more open-minded about? We're also very closed-minded about: * Child labor * The facially legitimate grievances of Al Qaeda * Universal suffrage * The illegality of marital rape Does it just happen that this particul…

I agree, there are numerous issues out there worthy of overhaul: * Circumcision * World military dominance * Eating meat

I could go on and on, but to answer your second question, it's not like people make a big list of issues then pick one. They have momentum and right now this one has it. It also has the advantage that people can, in a sense, take action about it.... to the extent you count being a keyboard warrior as taking action :)

It has momentum because, to a large extent, the people who brought the internet to the mainstream were these brilliant, powerful people, from the nerds to the politicians. Instead of it being received like a gift, most latecomers to the internet decided to use it to amplify their grievances.

Think of a teenager defying its parents "I didn't ask to be born." One might perceive these to be the immature, ungrateful voices of the cyber-rebels, YET they are also adults and full humans worthy of autonomy. They see the success of the people who create(d) the internet and they want a piece of it, too. They'll use it to get what they want.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#173

Post by 99mistakes »

tunesmith wrote: post #123

People can't seem to summarize his argument without getting much of it grossly wrong, because his manifesto was a haphazard collection of good points, bad points, good arguments, lousy arguments, misrepresentations of others' views, and unstated implications. A perfect recipe for people to argue past each other about it. It's worth remembering that one of his conclusions was to end or replace gender-based diversity p…

> If gender-based diversity programs are responsible for qualified women getting jobs that they otherwise wouldn't have gotten due to bias

You mean unqualified women not getting jobs due to a lack of bias, right?

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#175

Post by brown9-2 »

jorgemf wrote: post #8

> he had been fired for "perpetuating gender stereotypes." Of course, because a policy of positive discrimination for minorities is not perpetuating any stereotype... Equality doesn't mean equity. Equality is not fair. P.S. downvote whatever you want, it is called discrimination for a reason (even if it says positive before)

Can you give some examples of the positive discrimination?

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#176

Post by throwaway20148 »

tptacek wrote: post #110
wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

What else is the American mind unfairly closed to? Why is "women are, in the the large, excepting some outliers, biologically disfavored to become programmers" the threshold issue? What else should we be more open-minded about? We're also very closed-minded about: * Child labor * The facially legitimate grievances of Al Qaeda * Universal suffrage * The illegality of marital rape Does it just happen that this particul…

I think you forgot Nazism.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#177

Post by PKop »

chrissnell wrote: post #149
wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It's quite ironic: in their push for equality and inclusion, these liberals have created an environment where one faces exclusion and persecution for simply having political beliefs that align with a large portion of their fellow U.S. citizens. This is a very real thing. I never felt uncomfortable with my own political alignment before 2015 but I wouldn't dare put a GOP candidate sticker on my laptop now. It's not th…

Center-right / right individuals need to start organizing their own groups, companies, meet ups, jobs etc.

Vote with our feet, and our skills, and go elsewhere. They want to enforce their religion then they can do it without us.

There have to be plenty of people sick of watching what they say, walking on eggshells, and pretending to hold political views opposite of their true beliefs just to avoid the wrath of the regressive left.

This is only going to get worse, and I don't see why we all have to sit back and take it any more.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#178

Post by thesmallestcat »

chrissnell wrote: post #149
wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

It's quite ironic: in their push for equality and inclusion, these liberals have created an environment where one faces exclusion and persecution for simply having political beliefs that align with a large portion of their fellow U.S. citizens. This is a very real thing. I never felt uncomfortable with my own political alignment before 2015 but I wouldn't dare put a GOP candidate sticker on my laptop now. It's not th…

I hear what you're saying, but why would you want a GOP sticker on your laptop? Neither party is exactly the champion of the common man.

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#179

Post by afpx »

wildmusings wrote: post #35

The author's arguments have been completely misrepresented. He pointed out widely-believed and sometimes scientifically-established differences in the DISTRIBUTION OF traits in men and women. He said that those differences make attempts to achieve numerical parity misguided, discriminatory, and harmful. What is his conclusion about how we should behave? "Treat people as individuals, not as just another member of thei…

I know this is a sensitive topic, but Google's reaction is really just business. Women represent a huge and quickly growing sector of the economy. Public corporations would never take a big risk of their bottom line to support an individual's rights (ignoring whether those claims of rights are even valid or not). And, it's kind of silly to blame 'liberals' - because it transcends politics. Businesses are about making money.

(By the way, I think it is reasonable for some individual rights to be protected within the walls of a corporation, but as far as I understand it, many US citizen's rights, like free speech, do not cross over into private domains. I wish it was different.)

Re: Google Fires Employee Behind Controversial Diversity Memo

#180

Post by cthulha »

adbge wrote: post #7

An excellent opportunity to re-read PG's essay, "What You Can't Say". [1] "What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. Dressing oddly gets you laughed at. Violating moral fashions can get you fired, ostracized, imprisoned, or even killed."…

You might want to read Slavoj Zizek on ideology, since that's a deeper philosophical look at the same phenomena. Here's the quick video of him explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk8ibrfXvpQ

Basically, you might think about one thing as 'moral fashion' and another as 'social good', but you are really comparing two fashions and pretending to be objective.

To make a concrete example out of the situation in front of us: if there is proof that diverse companies perform better (https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter) then his reasoning about how diversity initiatives are wasteful must be incorrect.

So to say that he is 'correct' means to turn your back on empirical argument, and to base things in identity politics.

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