Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#171

Post by dagw » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 8:28 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #137

dagw wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do older programmers deal with coding interviews from companies like facebook / google? Badly. The unfortunate truth is that if you've hit 40+ without having built up enough expertise and contacts to bypass those types of interviews then finding a programming job is going to be really hard.

> bypass those types of interviews Can you elaborate a bit? I hear this all the time (get the job through contacts and networking not by applying and interviewing) but nobody will go into step-by-step detail about how one actually can manage to "bypass" a company's interview process. Company: "Thanks for your interest in working here. Your resume and application are impressive, and you have great references! Obviousl…

step-by-step detail about how one actually can manage to "bypass" a company's interview process.

Networks and reputation. Get a former boss/colleague that knows you (and who has ideally ended up in a position some of trust/responsibility) to recommend you to his boss. If someone the boss trust tells him that you have the exact combination of expertise they're looking for and that you're the person they need then everything goes a lot smoother.

That's how I got my current job. A former colleague (who'd ended up in a management position) called me out of the blue, invited me out to lunch and straight up asked me if I'd be interested in a new job. I still had to interview, but it felt like much more of a formality.

You can also just ask people. Keep a list of people you've work with that you trust/respect and that you believe trust and respect your skills and just keep in touch with them once every 6 month or so. Let them know that you are open to switching jobs if something interesting comes along and ask them to keep you mind.

Another way is to become a 'name' in your field. If yours is one of a handful of names that always comes up when people are talking about who in town is really good at X then chances are people will start seeking you out.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#172

Post by sean2 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 8:40 PM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #164

The most frustrating thing about being an older programmer is watching organizations make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah, sure, you might want to hire an older guy because he has experience with the intangible project stuff. But only if you're planning to listen to him. I feel like Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day : Me: We need to create our security architecture in the beginning. It's always har…

I'm in my early 30s, so frequently called an older programmer and I've heard a lot of, "we don't have time".

What I've been waking up to is that projects that estimate realistic budgets and time scales don't get funded. Everyone underbids knowing that the company/customer will continue to fund and extend deadlines for project after sinking so much effort into a buggy prototype, until the realistic estimate is reached and the product actually reflects all the "hidden"/"discovered" requirements (i.e. foreseen but not in the bid) including security, integration and test efforts.

What's weird is that everyone, customers included, seems to be in on this.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#173

Post by ryandrake » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 8:53 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #171

ryandrake wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> bypass those types of interviews Can you elaborate a bit? I hear this all the time (get the job through contacts and networking not by applying and interviewing) but nobody will go into step-by-step detail about how one actually can manage to "bypass" a company's interview process. Company: "Thanks for your interest in working here. Your resume and application are impressive, and you have great references! Obviousl…

step-by-step detail about how one actually can manage to "bypass" a company's interview process. Networks and reputation. Get a former boss/colleague that knows you (and who has ideally ended up in a position some of trust/responsibility) to recommend you to his boss. If someone the boss trust tells him that you have the exact combination of expertise they're looking for and that you're the person they need then ever…

Not sure that counts as "bypassing the interview" but thank you for your thoughts! This seems like normal networking 101, get your foot in the door by knowing someone there.

However, I've seen people claim, here on HN and in other forums, that they have received offers (not just opportunities to interview), sight otherwise unseen, from companies based purely on their own reputation and/or references. That's what seems unbelievable to me.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#174

Post by dagw » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #173

dagw wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

step-by-step detail about how one actually can manage to "bypass" a company's interview process. Networks and reputation. Get a former boss/colleague that knows you (and who has ideally ended up in a position some of trust/responsibility) to recommend you to his boss. If someone the boss trust tells him that you have the exact combination of expertise they're looking for and that you're the person they need then ever…

Not sure that counts as "bypassing the interview" but thank you for your thoughts! This seems like normal networking 101, get your foot in the door by knowing someone there. However, I've seen people claim, here on HN and in other forums, that they have received offers (not just opportunities to interview), sight otherwise unseen, from companies based purely on their own reputation and/or references. That's what seem…

It's not bypassing the whole interview, but it is bypassing the "coding interview" gauntlet which is what seems causes the most anguish. If you're there on a strong recommendation from a trusted colleague then the interview becomes as much the company trying to convince you to work there as it is you trying to convince them to hire you.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#175

Post by concede_pluto » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 9:29 PM UTC

pacaro wrote: post #160

autokad wrote: post #8

How do older programmers deal with coding interviews from companies like facebook / google? i feel like those advantage people who just finished their algorithms class, or have time to practice specifically for it.

Lots of people think that the answer is "badly", but we don't really know. My personal experience (I'm 44) is that I've been offered every job I've interviewed for, passed every phone screen etc. Many older developers of my acquaintance are happy where they are, they just don't move very often. With newcomers to the industry we see a reasonable cross section, but with more experience, the sample becomes confounded by…

This. At 47 I'm 13-2 in interviewing, where one of the rejections was mutual (a recruiter added bullshit to my resume and sent me for an obviously bad fit) and the other was Palantir years ago (coding didn't go badly, I think it was culture fit). I've never practiced for interviewing and I'm pretty suspicious that you only need to if you've spent your career gluing together code you don't understand. I've been worried about ageism but it hasn't kicked in yet.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#176

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 9:34 PM UTC

ralusek wrote: post #170

gozur88 wrote: post #164

The most frustrating thing about being an older programmer is watching organizations make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah, sure, you might want to hire an older guy because he has experience with the intangible project stuff. But only if you're planning to listen to him. I feel like Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day : Me: We need to create our security architecture in the beginning. It's always har…

I mean the problem is that you're both probably right. You SHOULD add in tests and security, but you also very likely DON'T have time. Good code can be structured in a way that it's not going to be a nightmare to add in considerations of this nature further down the line, but with this sort of environment of "speed > everything" else, they're not likely to let you implement code well either.

>I mean the problem is that you're both probably right. You SHOULD add in tests and security, but you also very likely DON'T have time.

But by doing the things that people can see and skipping the things they can't see you're effectively just lying when you produce a schedule. You don't do automated tests because it's a fun way to kill a Friday afternoon - you do them because they free you up to work on new functionality. So you're not really saving yourself time by not doing them.

These kinds of projects are almost always disasters. Invariably the problem is someone in middle management undersold the cost to the people above him. There's not enough time to write the app properly, so they borrow time off the end (with interest) to make it look like things are progressing to the deadline.

So you finish the first 90% on schedule and then flail around on the next 90%.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#177

Post by gozur88 » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 9:40 PM UTC

sean2 wrote: post #172

gozur88 wrote: post #164

The most frustrating thing about being an older programmer is watching organizations make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah, sure, you might want to hire an older guy because he has experience with the intangible project stuff. But only if you're planning to listen to him. I feel like Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day : Me: We need to create our security architecture in the beginning. It's always har…

I'm in my early 30s, so frequently called an older programmer and I've heard a lot of, "we don't have time". What I've been waking up to is that projects that estimate realistic budgets and time scales don't get funded. Everyone underbids knowing that the company/customer will continue to fund and extend deadlines for project after sinking so much effort into a buggy prototype, until the realistic estimate is reached…

I think that's true, pretty much. But the downside is they force an inefficient development methodology on you as you try to make the imaginary deadline.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#178

Post by snarfy » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 10:36 PM UTC

fnord123 wrote: post #136

snarfy wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of an intern that recently went through our company. A part of his summer project was to make some api calls to a soap endpoint. We were all very busy so he tried to be as self sufficient as possible and not ask questions. After about a week, he comes to me with questions about soap xml schema and implementation details. He did not understand it's already built into the tooling. You literally drag-n-d…

Hopefully you lot took it as your own failure and not the poor intern dropped into the field with one of the most over complicated technologies and 'magical thinking' tooling.

Sure, we shouldn't have been so busy to not support our teammates.

Still, I don't consider it a big failure. A lot of people go through life using technologies without really knowing how they work. He could have very well drag-n-dropped the soap endpoint and never learned a thing about soap. Now that he knows a bit about it he may alter his decisions in the future knowing the guts e.g. 'don't do that because it won't work through soap' etc.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#179

Post by imhoguy » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:16 PM UTC

sean2 wrote: post #172

gozur88 wrote: post #164

The most frustrating thing about being an older programmer is watching organizations make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah, sure, you might want to hire an older guy because he has experience with the intangible project stuff. But only if you're planning to listen to him. I feel like Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day : Me: We need to create our security architecture in the beginning. It's always har…

I'm in my early 30s, so frequently called an older programmer and I've heard a lot of, "we don't have time". What I've been waking up to is that projects that estimate realistic budgets and time scales don't get funded. Everyone underbids knowing that the company/customer will continue to fund and extend deadlines for project after sinking so much effort into a buggy prototype, until the realistic estimate is reached…

What you describe is often the scenario of do-everything consulting sweat shop building tailored or customized solution from scratch based on a single customer requirements. Management often lacks business vision and technological path. Front sales and techical people are randomly assigned and switched between ad-hoc projects with varying industry domains and poor communication chanels.

I think only debt slave or masochist stay in such places for longer. Age doesn't matter.

I would rather look for more focused software product companies with stable teams.

Re: Why You Should Hire an Old Programmer

#180

Post by mmt » Mon, Jul 03, 2017, 11:41 PM UTC

gozur88 wrote: post #164

The most frustrating thing about being an older programmer is watching organizations make the same mistakes over and over again. Yeah, sure, you might want to hire an older guy because he has experience with the intangible project stuff. But only if you're planning to listen to him. I feel like Bill Murray's character in Groundhog Day : Me: We need to create our security architecture in the beginning. It's always har…

It's even worse as an old sysadmin, since my Groundhog Day permeates almost every part of the organization.. and I've learned to avert my eyes from the code itself and leave that nightmare to the Old Programmers.

Not that any of this is surprising, since the lessons of the semiconductor boom and bust weren't put to adequate use during the dot-com boom and bust, so whatever new lessons we learned then still aren't being put to use.

Since being in what is, fundamentally, a support profession, the most I can do is play along. That means, sadly, as another commenter admitted of himself, I'm in on it.