Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

europa.eu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–180 of 702 posts

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#171

Post by matthewmacleod »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #104
matthewmacleod wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they could consider not engaging in uncompetitive practices. The thing is, if they want to do business in the EU they have to abide by the rules of the EU. It's not that complex!

You're acting like the outcome of this decision was in any way predictable based on the "rules of the EU". If I owned a website that had a search engine and comparison shopping and email, I would not expect that it's somehow wrong if my search engine shows results from my service's comparison shopping and email. I would not expect that it's somehow my obligation to seek out comparison shopping services operated by my…

You're acting like the outcome of this decision was in any way predictable based on the "rules of the EU"

It was. There are specific requirements in Article 102 about abusing dominant market positions to "apply…dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage".

If I owned a website that had a search engine and comparison shopping and email, I would not expect that it's somehow wrong if my search engine shows results from my service's comparison shopping and email.

If you owned a massive market-dominating service, then your team of corporate lawyers should expect that.

"You have to design new technology and build custom services that show business information for your competitors on your advertising/websites/properties"?

That's not what happened though – the specific instruction is:

the Decision orders Google to comply with the simple principle of giving equal treatment to rival comparison shopping services and its own service

That's all, and it is not unreasonable to impose these terms of a market dominating force that has used that dominance to crowd out competition.

What precedent is there for imposing rules this this on other businesses?

SO MUCH. http://ec.europa.eu/competition/elojade/isef/index.cfm

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#172

Post by torrent-of-ions »

HerraBRE wrote: post #77
romanovcode wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well it's the truth, isn't it?

I actually feel it's misleading and wrong at a very fundamental level; this was the only thing I disagreed with in the whole press release! Consumers "pay" for Google's services by giving ads attention so the ads have value and Google can sell them. All the data harvesting is a means to a end: to make the ads more appealing so you'll click. Google don't profit from the data directly; in fact all the data harvesting a…

No it's not so you will click it. They collect the data from customers and offer it to the advertisers. The data is a big part of the product they sell to advertisers: targeting advertising. They don't sell user clicks (why would anyone pay for that?), they sell targeted advertising.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#173

Post by TeMPOraL »

diggan wrote: post #10
forthefuture wrote: post #8

Capitalism is like a competition that when you win you don't ever get to play again.

It's more like a game where others should have the chance to win at one point, just like you did.

Winning means end of the game. Hence the game doesn't allow anyone to win - because what the society needs is not the players to win, but for the game to go on and players to play.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#174

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

vegancap wrote: post #121
matthewmacleod wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have absolutely no framework for understanding this attitude. I've got to assume you're aware of things like unfair competition, antitrust laws, market distortions and so on. The idea is that a disproportionately influential market participant can cause the market to become less free by virtue of inhibiting competition – competition being a vital part of a free market. Rules against abusing a dominant market positi…

I get that competition is vital for a free-market to function, unless Google gained power in this scenario through external influences such as government, then surely it has gained its position through market competition?

And if you invited people into your house, and they came of their free will, then you surely got them into your house legally?

Yes, you did. And now you have the de-facto monopoly over the key for the front door. So, what could be wrong with asking for half their life savings if they want to be let out?

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#175

Post by matthewmacleod »

xorium wrote: post #87
matthewmacleod wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, they could consider not engaging in uncompetitive practices. The thing is, if they want to do business in the EU they have to abide by the rules of the EU. It's not that complex!

It's not that complex! Corporate law is extremely complex.

That's a glib answer. Google is free to continue doing business in the EU and is does not 'have no choice but to pay up'. That's simple.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#177

Post by dustinmoris »

raverbashing wrote: post #141
dustinmoris wrote: post #125

Someone said once something which really describes this well: The EU hasn't contributed ANYTHING to the internet, but they are the ones who want to regulate it the most. :(

Enjoy your non-neutral internet in the US and your extortionate roaming fees when you walk closer to Canada And if by the EU you mean its countries, you're so wrong it's not even funny, but the US bubble is strong

I don't need to be a US citizen to agree with this statement. I am an EU citizen living in the EU and to be honest I think this fine is BS.

The company who initiated this lawsuit is http://www.foundem.co.uk/.

This website looks like absolute shit, it doesn't even render properly on mobile, but hey, if they fail they just blame Google search for their mistakes and the EU backs it without second thoughts after the US has fined VW recently for actual fraud.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#178

Post by Nokinside »

interfixus wrote: post #74
calcifer wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google holding a dominant position or a monopoly on search is not by itself illegal. However, using that position to gain entry in a different market (shopping, in this case) is considered anti-competitive and hence illegal.

No, I realise that. My question is how are they supposed to hold a monoply or dominance, when there is nothing but preference or lazyness stopping anyone from switching to a competing service?

It's not just customer choice. They have all the classical barriers for entry for anyone trying to provide similar product quality. Even if someone manages to beat them temporarily, Google can compete with prices (of ads typically) so low that they can't make profits but Google can. They bleed out anyone trying to compete.

Economies of scale, network externalities and vertical and horizontal integration means that popular internet services are king of the hill type business. Bigger and larger translates to smaller cost per user, cheaper ads and higher quality. There can be only few really big players and they create natural barriers to entry for anyone else.

All classical barriers of entry apply to Google, FB, Amazon:

* Economies scale production

* Limit pricing

* High set-up costs

* High sunk costs

* Advertising

* brand loyalty

* vertical integration

* horizontal integration

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#179

Post by amelius »

anilgulecha wrote: post #144
amelius wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But as far as I understand, AMP is just an open technology, i.e. open for any (search) company to implement. Google is just the company proposing the standard (and coincidentally benefiting most from it).

Proposing the standard sure, but importantly, prominently displaying it in search results. If an AMP equivalent standard came out by Mozilla or Microsoft or Facebook, it would be an uphill task for them to get google to give those pages special treatment in search results. Hence, there is an argument to be made about AMP being an anti-competitive (search engine dominance used to push it's own diet-html).

I'm not sure if the actual format is relevant in a court of law, as long as anybody is capable of producing the format.

For example, Google is already favoring HTML above, say, TXT pages. Demanding TXT to be shown as high as HTML in search results doesn't make much sense.

Re: European Commission fines Google €2.42B for abusing dominance

#180

Post by claudius »

pavlakoos wrote: post #21

Does it hurt them at all?

They had a net income of 23 Billion Dollars in 2016, so the one-time fine alone is approx. 10% of their net income last year. The daily fine of 5% of daily worldwide revenue would amount to approx. 20% of their daily worldwide net income (using the 90 Billion from Wikipedia as worldwide revenue and 23 Billion as net income).

Since the EU is likely more than just 10%/20% of their income, they still make some money here, but I doubt that it was worth it for Froogle…

Post reply on HN