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Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

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Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#171

Post by lomnakkus »

vivekd wrote: post #157
lomnakkus wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm off my rocker, but isn't this exactly what "white lies"[1] were invented for? You don't actually always have to be 100% truthful with everyone. (That will also serve you badly in other social situations, BTW.) [1] Point being that even if people eventually find out that you did tell them a "white lie", they'll actually usually be very understanding because that's the societal norm and they realize that you…

But can't we decline politely while still telling the truth. Lying seems unnecessary in this situation. I think white lies are more for things like when someone asks you what you think of their cooking and you tell them it's delicious no matter how it tastes.

Well, it definitely is situational. My point was merely that it's usually better to say "Oh, I'm sorry, I can't, I have to attend [implying dullness] a party with my parents that day" rather than "No, I don't want to go on a date with you". The key is that it allows BOTH parties to avoid an unpleasant interaction and to save face. (Assuming that they both take the hint, obviously.)

It's basically plausible deniability (or "denial", if you will) for social interactions... which is at the basis of most of human interaction, if you think about it.

EDIT: Of course, if you're laboring under "Depressive Realism"[1] then all of this is pretty transparent, but if you buy the DR hypothesis then most people actually don't notice this type of thing going on (at the meta level, obviously sometimes they'll discover they've been lied to, etc.).

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#172

Post by icanhackit »

skosch wrote: post #97
watwut wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it oftentimes easier to say no without saying reason. The issue for me was that when I state reason, people wanted to negotiate, attempted to "advise" me on how organize my time better and so on and so forth. Overtime (at least against many people) I found it much less draining to simply insist on politely stated no without further explanation.

Counterpoint: when people do this to me, I instinctively assume that the true reason is laziness. On top of that, I feel alienated – what, you think you're so important that you can brush me off just like that, and I'm not even worthy being given a reason? Be careful with this one. It's very much possible to state a reason and still express that you won't change your mind on the matter. Although it is more effort, yo…

> Counterpoint: when people do this to me, I instinctively assume that the true reason is laziness

It depends on who you are in the scheme of things. If you're a friend, colleague or family member you have the expectation that you can depend on a person because of your proximity to them in a social network. No usually does need to be qualified in those cases. But if you're not closely tied to a person in a network and request something from them, to expect a reason or explanation for non-compliance is unreasonable.

Social networks often act as ledgers for who owes whom what and when you're asked by someone who is a distant node in the network to do something the risk is greater that your actions won't be reciprocated in some form, even if its simply an acknowledgement of what you did for them, because you can't appraise their character.

Caveats: Money is a shortcut through all of this social-ledger malarkey. My explanation ignores time as a cost factor. I can't back any of this up with facts.

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#173

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

astockwell wrote: post #93
nrjames wrote: post #15

It's ok to be accommodating as long as you have learned to be introspective. We all have demands of our own time and money. Introspective accommodating people are able to help others in a generous way while protecting the time and resources they need to help themselves. It's a difficult balance to achieve. Through experience, I've come to believe that this holds true in long-term personal relationships, too. While ma…

Indeed, as Mark Manson puts it[1]: "For a relationship to be healthy, both parties need to be able to both give and receive rejection". Eye-opening for me, and explained many of the unhealthy relationships in my life (including employee-employer dynamics). [1] https://markmanson.net/books/subtle-art (quasi-NSFW)

I am at work, but I don't give a fuck.

This is the best thing I've read for a long time:

"Because when we give too many fucks, when we choose to give a fuck about everything, then we feel as though we are perpetually entitled to feel comfortable and happy at all times, that’s when life fucks us."[1]

1. https://markmanson.net/not-giving-a-fuck

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#174

Post by rytill »

skosch wrote: post #97
watwut wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it oftentimes easier to say no without saying reason. The issue for me was that when I state reason, people wanted to negotiate, attempted to "advise" me on how organize my time better and so on and so forth. Overtime (at least against many people) I found it much less draining to simply insist on politely stated no without further explanation.

Counterpoint: when people do this to me, I instinctively assume that the true reason is laziness. On top of that, I feel alienated – what, you think you're so important that you can brush me off just like that, and I'm not even worthy being given a reason? Be careful with this one. It's very much possible to state a reason and still express that you won't change your mind on the matter. Although it is more effort, yo…

Seems like that's at least partially on you.

I have a friend like this and, while we get along great most of the time, he is always interrogating people who say no to him and you can just tell he's assuming 'the true reason is laziness'.

People make complex decisions and they shouldn't always have to explain why. Especially with someone you trust.

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#175

Post by draw_down »

makecheck wrote: post #143

Part of the problem is that “good manners” only seem to be considered in one direction. It is time to redefine “rude” to include people that do not know how to communicate their needs very well and/or are just super-entitled. Why am I the one considered “impolite” by not dropping everything and helping you immediately, if you haven’t bothered to do things like: - Indicate everything you have tried already (or worse,…

I agree with you, but I think it's important not to take the bait. If someone is implying you're a rude person for not doing what they want, and you know you're not that, you can simply disregard. What they think of you is their problem and not yours. Always maintain the frame of what you think is right and what is best for you, and do not buy into their frame.

Of course, it gets trickier in different situations for different reasons. But basically, people try to use shaming and emotional blackmail to get what they want, don't let them.

One other thing: I think about the fundamental attribution error / actor-observer bias a lot. You're an asshole because you won't do the thing I want, but when someone else asked me for a thing and I said no, it was because I was busy and etc etc. This dynamic influences so much of what people think about others and themselves.

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#176

Post by johnminter »

merraksh wrote: post #118

At eighteen I went away to college. [...] I had saved enough from a summer's work to pay the fees of the first term, I guess college wasn't that expensive back then (or summer jobs were paying a lot).

That was true of state universities as late as the mid 1970s when I attended. It was the rise of easy credit for guaranteed loans that permitted the current runaway inflation in costs. College costs have grown faster than health care.

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#177

Post by lomnakkus »

Swizec wrote: post #138
hammock wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both of those sound terrible and regardless of your feelings I might tag you as unreliable. Is there a third way?

Unreliable is great! I don't want to be relied upon for things I don't want to do. Why would I want to come off as reliable for things I don't want to be doing in the first place? That's a great way to get to do even more of the things you don't want to do. Sounds terrible. Align your interests with mine, then we can talk about reliable. In the words of one Richard Feynman : http://www.deliberate.rest/?p=685 > So I h…

> Unreliable is great!

Anecdote: It only goes so far. There are quite a lot of people who will be quite pissed off with you (passively) if you're unreliable. I mean, friends will tolerate it, but let me tell you, as someone who's quite "reliable" (punctual, do what I promise, etc.) it's quite stressful to have to rely on someone who isn't. So stressful, in fact, that I wouldn't actually interact very much with this particular person I'm thinking of right now if I wasn't forced to (via circumstances beyond my control).

> [Snip Feynman] anecdote.

Feynman could get away with a lot of shit that almost nobody else would have done because he was a genius (and was recognized as such by his contemporaries).

Are you at "Feynman"-level?

> 90% of the time, being "reliable" goes against my best interests in terms of career and goals.

^ I don't see what the above...

> My value is that I can hunker down and make stuff. My value is not "tasks".

... has to do with this. Can you explain?

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#178

Post by psyc »

skosch wrote: post #97
watwut wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found it oftentimes easier to say no without saying reason. The issue for me was that when I state reason, people wanted to negotiate, attempted to "advise" me on how organize my time better and so on and so forth. Overtime (at least against many people) I found it much less draining to simply insist on politely stated no without further explanation.

Counterpoint: when people do this to me, I instinctively assume that the true reason is laziness. On top of that, I feel alienated – what, you think you're so important that you can brush me off just like that, and I'm not even worthy being given a reason? Be careful with this one. It's very much possible to state a reason and still express that you won't change your mind on the matter. Although it is more effort, yo…

I don't think I'm more important than you, but you bet I think I'm important enough to say no to anybody without a reason.

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#179

Post by adrianmonk »

watwut wrote: post #96
manmal wrote: post #91

For anybody learning to say "no" currently - learn to say "no" gently and kindly. I'm quite bad at this myself. I let people impose stuff on me, and once I have had enough, I have a very rude way of telling people off. One reason for this rudeness is a fear that I will lose something when declining (e.g. a relationship or money), so I feel stuck between a rock and a hard place - I don't want to help, but I feel I sho…

I found it oftentimes easier to say no without saying reason. The issue for me was that when I state reason, people wanted to negotiate, attempted to "advise" me on how organize my time better and so on and so forth. Overtime (at least against many people) I found it much less draining to simply insist on politely stated no without further explanation.

Yes, unfortunately true. It gives the other person a signal that says "I feel like you have enough power in this situation that I have to justify this decision to you".

And if they are the type to push people around whenever they are able, you've basically just told them they are going to win this battle, so go ahead.

Re: Why I Quit Being So Accommodating (1922)

#180

Post by Gustomaximus »

imesh wrote: post #21
will_pseudonym wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there's also the fact that the best doctors are the most in demand, so a doctor who isn't busy isn't that in demand, which is a good indicator that he isn't the best.

I know this is just a metaphorical doctor, but i don't think there are any doctor's who aren't busy

Also there can be a zero correlation between being busy, productive and good at what you do.
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