Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

38north.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

171–177 of 177 posts

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#171

Post by quirkafleeg »

krapp wrote: post #166
quirkafleeg wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever may have eventually been negotiated, and perhaps nothing would ever have been agreed, it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender.

The recording of the Emperor's surrender had to be sneaked out to NHK studios past a military coup in progress, so certainly not everyone was convinced. Personally, I tend to believe that the nukes, the potential cost of defending against an invasion of the mainland by the US, and Russia's invasion made surrender look like the obvious choice, but remember that the initial plan for Pearl Harbor assumed a negotiated su…

> Fanatical resistance by the military, both due to their own racist ideals and out of the fear for self-preservation drew the war and the surrender out longer than it needed to be.

That doesn't seem to be what you were originally arguing:

> It's odd how [Japan "fighting and fighting and fighting"] is portrayed as a negative aspect of Japan's militarism, when the Allies were fighting the same war with the same attitude.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#172

Post by mmjaa »

dang wrote: post #169
mmjaa wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats unsubstantive about their point of view that the people are responsible for their governments? This is a widely accepted truth, throughout history and international law - so while I do agree that the poster you're warning is a bit rude, I don't agree that their position is unsubstantive, one bit. I can understand their exasperation at the many claims that "governments can just get away with whatever they want t…

On HN that point is unsubstantive because it's generic. We've learned from long experience that generic ideological discussions go nowhere interesting. Worse, users compensate for the inability to say anything new or interesting by fulminating, which leads to rants, incivility, and flamewars. That's how you get to arguments that population X deserved atrocity Y in one or two hops, and then outraged responses and outr…

Seems to me that its something that should be written up somewhere, since it is such valuable knowledge. I mean, I've read the posting guidelines, but your succinct description of the effect is far more useful.

However, it has to be stated that the entire basis of American society started with the Declaration of Independence, which frames the argument in entirely substantive terms leading to the conclusion that there is no government without its people - thus the people are responsible for their government whether they like it or not.

I feel that this point is valid in this conversation, because there is most definitely groupthink involved in not taking any responsibility, whatsoever, for ones governments' actions. Especially in the HN crowd, this is a vital issue and one that is no doubt bound to create diversion. But, doesn't that mean we need to continue the discussion, not censor it?

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#173

Post by PerfectDlite »

quirkafleeg wrote: post #170
PerfectDlite wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ю it disproves the myth (used to justify the atom bombs) that only being nuked forced them to consider surrender. How is this a myth if nukes were mentioned in emperor's address as a reason to surrender?

I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding here: Because, as I've said, at least twice, they were already considering surrender even before the atomic bombs were dropped.

Yes. But if atomic bombs were mentioned as a reason for surrender, why you're calling it a myth?

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#175

Post by quirkafleeg »

PerfectDlite wrote: post #173
quirkafleeg wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're having trouble understanding here: Because, as I've said, at least twice, they were already considering surrender even before the atomic bombs were dropped.

Yes. But if atomic bombs were mentioned as a reason for surrender, why you're calling it a myth?

Because being one of numerous factors is not the same as being the only factor, or even necessarily the deciding factor.

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#176

Post by PerfectDlite »

quirkafleeg wrote: post #175
PerfectDlite wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But if atomic bombs were mentioned as a reason for surrender, why you're calling it a myth?

Because being one of numerous factors is not the same as being the only factor, or even necessarily the deciding factor.

What numerous factors are you talking about? Did they got a mention in emperor's address?

Re: A Closer Look at North Korea’s Ullim Tablet

#177

Post by quirkafleeg »

PerfectDlite wrote: post #176
quirkafleeg wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because being one of numerous factors is not the same as being the only factor, or even necessarily the deciding factor.

What numerous factors are you talking about? Did they got a mention in emperor's address?

Since you're asking me what's in it, I assume you haven't read it. Why not do that now; it's not hard to find online.

After that, please read some basic WWII history before stringing this thread out any longer, if you're seriously unaware of anything but the atom bomb that didn't go Japan's way in 1945.

Post reply on HN