Live data from Hacker News

Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

npr.org

171–180 of 359 posts

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#171
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let people run their own software. If they kill someone, hold them liable. If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As many comments on these stories demonstrate, farmers have as much valid reasons to have control over their equipment as John Deere has for preventing it. Technology is always about trade-offs. It's just that John Deere took things too far.

> If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As much as I dislike John Deer's strategy, your statement is just stupid. Waiting for people do die before you regulate to make it safer doesn't work. Look at Ford who calculated that saving $x on a component was worth it if only y people die and their relatives sue.

That component you refer to was necessary for the safe usage of the vehicle. If it fails, bad things would happen (and they did).

Having control over your tractor does not necessarily kill people. Death is not inherently implied by farmers merely having access.

Apples and oranges. Equating the two is silly.

Most people won't be adding in gotos and if statements, they'll be replacing borken parts and getting their tractors working again.

Those few who actually do end up writing code for it, and those who opt to run it, will do so with the full knowledge that it'll be their asses on the line when something goes wrong.

Either way, my point was that people won't die from access unless they do something really stupid, and death due to stupidity is going to occur regardless of whether the tractor is locked down or not.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#172
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> John Deere tractors run on open source software Out of curiosity, what range of open source licenses appear in the code base? Do they use any software whose license requires source distribution? If so, are you aware of a "source code" page buried in John Deere's website, or some other mechanism by which they satisfy any distribution clauses?

I couldn't possibly comment. This would be close to me breaking NDA ground here, so sorry about that. I know that the legal department took software licensing very seriously and we had a narrow range of licenses we could use.

NDA on open source libraries? Don't those licenses usually require attribution at the very least? Where can we find the license file? Surely JD is complying with license requirements, which would require disclosing the libs used...

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#173

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

If you could explain in reasonable detail a few common scenarios faced by the average farmer with an issue that would necessitate JD engineering expertise, I would very much appreciate it. Specifically, I'd be interested in hearing how the repair work orders that come in to JD engineering most frequently justify the claim that 'locking this down is a very good idea'.

Who, aside from the operator of the machine, is being put in such grave danger? Why am I, someone with no knowledge of combustion engines/cars in general, allowed to do my own work on the car that conceivably endangers thousands of fellow commuters each day, but a farmer driving a tractor (that lets say he's changed the engine timing on) in his own empty fields is somehow a great threat to society?

I would wager that Joe Farmer has a significantly stronger 'fucking clue' how to repair the issues they encounter with their tractors than Joe Developer at John Deere. Mostly because unless they're doing an aggressively poor job on the software (that you're convinced is too complicated for the unwashed masses to wrap their feeble minds around), the farmer shouldn't even need to be aware of its existence.

Additionally, I think you and I both know the vast majority of farmers adversely affected by these business practices are not dealing with 40 ton death machines, but rather the low-end John Deere products that do little more than an equivalent machine from 30 years ago could do. I'd also be interested to hear how ordinary farm machinery necessitates a codebase as complicated as you purport the JD software to be. The problems these machines have to deal with are not difficult, and were largely solved years ago. I can imagine there are some rather complicated hardware engineering efforts involved, but I'm skeptical that the software component would require anything beyond the skills of an enterprising group of skilled undergrads. I realize embedded dev work in safety critical applications is not so easy, but I nevertheless feel like you're dramatically overstating the complexity.

I'm sure the engineers on these projects are veritably concerned with the safety of their customers, and I don't mean to suggest otherwise. Just keep in mind the considerable imbalance of power between JD (and its engineers) and their farmer customers -- particularly in these types of debates.

edit: upon reading my submission, I came off as a bit of a jerk, and for that I apologize. In my defense, before getting into the software industry, I grew up working on a farm, and as a result am a bit reactionary in the face of any sort of "I'm a big bad developer, these guys are glorified lawn mowers who need to be protected from themselves." lines of reasoning.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#174

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

>But trust me on this,...

isn't a way to make a good argument.

From TFA "Only dealerships have the software to make those parts work, and it costs hundreds of dollars just to get a service call. Schwarting worries about being broken down in a field, waiting for a dealer to show up with a software key."

and from a comment above

"Plus, many of them don't get any update after the product launch. When you are in rush to plant or harvest you just can`t afford to wait for an authorized dealer. And if they fail, good luck trying to find a replacement that is not 100x overpriced because it has been discontinued one year after you bought it."

the problem seems to be that the process of updating software (a) takes too long (b) is too expensive (c) sofware is not updated once the tractor has been sold.

In an ideal world, where such a break down can be instantly fixed by JD for a reasonable fee, and JD actively updates the software on the equipment they sell till End of Life, this problem wouldn't exist.

Farmers don't care about open source etc. They just want to do their jobs. I'm astounded by the fact that JD takes no responsibility for updating software till end of life of the tractor.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let people run their own software. If they kill someone, hold them liable. If deaths become endemic, then consider locking them down. As many comments on these stories demonstrate, farmers have as much valid reasons to have control over their equipment as John Deere has for preventing it. Technology is always about trade-offs. It's just that John Deere took things too far.

Think about what you just said for a second. "endemic" deaths of innocent people are the litmus test for whether software should be locked down? How is that in any way acceptable?

My bet is that the few deaths that will initially occur, will be due to stupidity, rather than the ability to fix your property.

If people thought like you did, we wouldn't have kitchen knifes.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#176
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people do not want to buy things as a service, they want to buy and own something that was built correctly the first time, and if not, is supported for the reasonable lifetime of the product for the cost stated upfront, and can be supported by people outside the company out of their pocket after that. This as a service model is not inherent to the complexity, it's usually a cash grab.

But in an open capitalists society, such rent-seeking will be resisted by the market and by the law. A vendor has every right to make their offering a service. Unless, of course, they are abusing their monopoly position. IBM was taken to court for this in 1969.

Heil Market!

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#177
post #119

This really reminds me of how Richard Stallman started GNU. It was because he can't modify the software on a printer he uses.

And the Pro-corporate shills would say "What if he made printer into a ink bomb? we should respect the right of manufacturer to offer printer as a service".

This kind of blind slavery to ideology of blind market instead of intelligent systems to provide the best outcomes in a information era is only setting back innovation.

All software should be free as in freedom of speech at the very least. And I say as automation progresses, and material needs of society can be fulfilled freely, it should also be free as in free beer.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#178
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't possibly comment. This would be close to me breaking NDA ground here, so sorry about that. I know that the legal department took software licensing very seriously and we had a narrow range of licenses we could use.

NDA on open source libraries? Don't those licenses usually require attribution at the very least? Where can we find the license file? Surely JD is complying with license requirements, which would require disclosing the libs used...

I don't think it's fair to assume an ex-employee knows the details of the software licenses or where to find them. If he knows more concrete details (like a link to the license file) I imagine he would share, but otherwise invoking NDA is a safety measure to avoid sharing potentially incorrect/outdated info.

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#179

Hey all, I worked on software for John Deere. This is a throwaway account for obvious reasons. Opinions expressed here are MY OWN. I no longer work for John Deere or am associated with them in any way. I was part of one of the many teams that work on this software. Specifically I was part of John Deere's ISG division also known as the Intelligent Solutions Group. The ISG division (was at the time) responsible for tyi…

> If a team of hundred of engineers struggle with their codebase internally, Joe Farmer isn't going to have a fucking clue how to repair their software correctly. > But trust me on this, locking this down is a very good idea. Joe Farmer may not know, but Joe farmer has "the internet", and ability to pay an independent software engineer. And people would absolutely find and fix bugs that john deer is missing. Honestly…

So semi related, been in software for 20 years and contemplated getting a Motec w e-throttle for my (road legal) race car "no f-king way" is my thought process, I've got a race engine management system but no way I'm having anything other than a cable between me and the throttle body. I love software, I love engineering, I love what an e-throttle can do for traction control. But there will always be bugs with software ...I'd trust a road car with massive engineering teams, I struggle with the thought of a smaller team and how it could possibly go wrong. I personally get where he's coming from ... I can't imagine single engineers being able to test and have foresight on the umpteen permutations of "what-if"

Re: Farmers look for ways to circumvent tractor software locks

#180
post #158
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't sound like the farmers are asking to rewrite or replace that software. It sounds like they are just asking to be able to make the same kind of repairs that their local dealer makes.

And what kind of repairs are that? As a software developer I don't understand what equipment is failure needs software change. Software don't wear and tear. Hardware does.

All software ships with bugs. Some of them cause real problems, and are patched in the next firmware rev. Farmers (rightfully) resent being held over a barrel in both time and money for fixes that should be part of already owning the machine. For example, if Ford discovers a flaw in their cars' ABS code that is recall-worthy, that's what happens, and Ford, not the customer, foots the bill.
Post reply on HN