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Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

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Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#171

Post by Muromec »

karthikb wrote: post #152
Muromec wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. No it would not. Nothing can beat sub 500 USD apartment, 5% tax rate and 3 cents for subway ticket

Yes - it absolutely can. What matters in the above scenario is the total cash left over after expenses (surplus), not the size of the expenses (expenditure).

Sure, but it means that guy should make 2x of what he gets at home just to keep up, and we are talking about same person with same skills, connections etc.

So the real rational decision would be to start company with access to VSs in US and hire developers in Ukraine. Which is exactly what is happening.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#172

Post by Anderkent »

karthikb wrote: post #152
Muromec wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you're a fantastic developer in Ukraine, India or China and have very limited needs (compared to a guy with a family and kids), your disposable monthly income net of taxes, rent and commute expenses is still likely to be higher in Silicon Valley than Ukraine, India or China. No it would not. Nothing can beat sub 500 USD apartment, 5% tax rate and 3 cents for subway ticket

Yes - it absolutely can. What matters in the above scenario is the total cash left over after expenses (surplus), not the size of the expenses (expenditure).

But the idea is that you take a remote job based in (rich country), get paid like a (rich country) developer, but only have costs of a developer in (poor country).

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#173

Post by PeterisP »

reason_police wrote: post #161

> people with self-determination, i.e., a country, have decided You know that's just flat out false, especially considering you've personally never been asked about it. > countries agree to give up part of sovereignty Again, you were not asked. Neither was any other ordinary person affected. > the tourist visa explicitly has a number of terms and conditions I brought up the idea of the Social Contract. You're talking…

What difference does it make if someone has been asked or not? The rules apply anyway, consent or consensus is not required.

Sovereignty works not only for full democracies, but also for monarchies, dictatorships, and various kinds of representative decisionmaking.

But the main point I was trying to make is that if "you were born in England and lived there all your life. Then you fly over to Thailand on a tourist visa" then whatever social contract Thailand people have established in Thailand doesn't matter - you are not entitled to its benefits, you are not part of their social group (yet?), you don't have an inherent right to be part of that group, and it's up to them whether they will extend their social contract to you at all and if so, on what conditions. In this regard it doesn't make a meaningful difference how Thailand decides it and who gets asked. Self-determination of countries is a thing even if those countries are internally governed very unfairly - coming from outside it doesn't matter, you anyway wouldn't get a say on how they're governed.

Again, it doesn't matter of all or most people there were asked on that - if they don't like their system, they're free to change it, but until then whoever or whatever rules there gets to make the rules how Thailand will handle travel across it's borders.

Unrestricted travel is not a core human right, the right of national/regional self-determination is considered more important and overrides it. There is a right to decide who visits in your territory, and there is no inherent right for a visitor to come if they're not invited.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#174

Post by sokoloff »

intoverflow2 wrote: post #153

What on earth is the point in working hard and earning a large salary if there is sod all to spend it on? If I were living in a small country town I'd be choosing a far more chilled job than I currently have because there isn't anything to spend the extra income on in a small town.

I have focused so hard on income as one leg of the financial security stool.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-sim...

I'm in a position to retire now at 45 if I chose (or was somehow forced to). Big income, reasonable (though far from Spartan) expenses, and regular long-term investments lead to a secure financial position for my family.

I happen to (mostly) really enjoy my work, so I expect to keep doing it until our kids are off to college, at which point we should have well more than enough to retire in style. THAT is what (and when) there is to spend it on in my case.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#175

Post by eli_gottlieb »

henrikschroder wrote: post #145
rubicon33 wrote: post #38

I used to live in SF. It was exciting, but also shitty. I felt connected and alive, which was great, but also drained of resources, which really sucked. Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. I had the living room. Yea. I lasted 3 years, until I met my wife, and by then I was ready to move. We did. Now, life in the suburbs, is slow. I feel somewhat disconnected and like I don't really belong to this co…

> Oh, and there were 6 of us, in a 3 bedroom apartment. This is such a weird American phenomenon, the whole roommate thing. What on earth can make adults choose to share their home with a stranger? Why isn't there intense pressure for building many small apartments, rather than building larger apartments that are meant for roommates? Is it connected to the equally weird college dorm roommate system? Why are people ac…

Two factors perpetuate this:

1) Americans have a self-hating working class.

2) American home-owners are politically organized, and constantly lobby to prevent the construction of both new single-family houses and apartment buildings in general.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#176

Post by Anderkent »

taway_1212 wrote: post #163
Swizec wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I moved to SF from Slovenia. The percentage of my income that I save* is smaller, but the absolute number is still bigger. Turns out the glass ceiling for "smart dirty immigrant" jobs is much higher than the ceiling for "remote dude" jobs as well. Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Unless of course you're okay stagn…

> Add the nice bonus that there's simply more to do in a megalopolis of 6mio people than a city of 300k and it's kind of a no brainer. Can you give an example? I've lived in London before and I don't think I saw a single thing available there (that I was interested in) that wasn't available in much smaller cities. I mean, why do you need thousands of restaurants and nightclubs, when in a small city you still have doz…

Variety? Also, theatres, cinemas, shops... Most of all, the fact that no matter what sport/hobby/game/activity you're into, you can always find people to do it with.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#177

Post by humanrebar »

flowardnut wrote: post #44

I moved from a medium sized city that had ~5 dev shops to work at. They all sucked. I had friends from college at each one, and we all basically spent our days plugging fixes into 8 year old java or .net apps and trying to keep our brains entertained. I did the usual and moved to "an expensive city" of portland. There's hundreds of places hiring, from "work on our inventory system in java" to healthcare to high tech…

> tons of beer

This sort of thing confuses me. It's not difficult to get fancy alcohol anywhere, especially wines and spirits, since they have better shelf lives, but you can get niche beers as well.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#178

Post by Lio »

reustle wrote: post #137
Lio wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll give you a reason, although it's a reason that's personal only to me, probably. I love road cycling as a sport. IMHO cycling for pleasure sucks in cities, even ones with great cycling infrastructure. The cycle paths are full of slow commuters calmly pootling their way to work|shops|date|whatever. The roads in cities are full of distracted|incompetent|psychopathic drivers in motor vehicles all wanting to "punish"…

Sounds like you just need to move to a more bike friendly city/country :)

Whilst that could be true (there's a distinct mountain shortage in these parts) it doesn't entirely solve the city road/bike path problem.

In cities that are renowned bike friendliness e.g. Amsterdam or Copenhagen most of the cycling is low speed on the excellent cycle paths. Most of the riders are on utility bikes in their everyday clothing (as opposed to dressing to go fast and get sweaty).

If people are just peacefully commuting at 20kph (12mph) I would feel a bit of an arse if I went hooning past on a time trial bike at 50kph (31 mph).

Editor's note: Actually I'd be over the moon if I could maintain a 31 mph average for 10 miles! :)

The small town I live in actually has pretty good segregated bike paths but I only use them when I'm commuting slowly and not when I'm training.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#179

Post by sokoloff »

ulfw wrote: post #120
barilla1234 wrote: post #110

Ok. Let's look at Mark Zuck. He and his facebook plan were going to succeed anyway. If he had said, I need 10 000 devs working right next to me in Managua, Nicaragua, that is where they would be today. He didn't do it, but Zuck could have. Doing Facebook out of Managua would have worked, just like doing Skype out of Talinn, Estonia today works perfectly-well too.

No he couldn't have. He needed Bay Area investor money, he needed Bay Area connections and he needed the Bay Area press echo chamber. That's why he moved as a college kid out west to Palo Alto and not Nicaragua.

Exactly. I'm from Cambridge, MA and as much as it pains me, I'm not convinced he could have Facebook into what it is today from here.

There was a time not that long ago when it wasn't obvious who the social winner was going to be.

Re: Why do developers who could work anywhere flock to the most expensive cities?

#180

Post by sokoloff »

expertentipp wrote: post #103

Because that's where the jobs are. I'm always wondering why the most interesting and best paid sofware openings in EU are in the shithole cities cities like London, Paris, Zurich, Munich etc (I'm not talking about these "best cities to live" rankings). Try renting anything livable there - it's not only extortionate but can be very difficult in terms of required documentation, try to eat out or use any services (price…

"No one goes there anymore; it's too crowded..."

I don't think "shithole" is a reasonable description of the concern that's in your head about those cities. Overly expensive and cramped to live in, sure. Shithole? No way...

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