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Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

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Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#171
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to really want a job or really need a job to put up with that sort of behavior. For all other situations I have close to a zero tolerance policy.

I so you are very lucky. 99% of people have to put up with things like this without saying a thing.

Do you? I noted that if I really wanted or needed the job that I'd put up with it. Wouldn't that apply to everyone?

Suppose you're happy where you are now but an opportunity comes by which sounds good so you start talking to them. They're super flakey. Wouldn't you just say "screw it"?

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#172
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd have to really want a job or really need a job to put up with that sort of behavior. For all other situations I have close to a zero tolerance policy.

...Here's what the rest of us put up with that aren't in SW engineering/development/IT. Step 1. Put in 300+ applications (200+ in Nor Cal Central Valley area, 178 in PHX area) Step 2. Wait for responses and get a 2% response rate in Nor Cal/central valley, and a 17% response rate in PHX...with the exact same resume despite being top 25% of the class, extra curriculars, and having a decent econ degree) Step 3. Of 90%…

If you're filing 300+ applications that would imply that you need a new job and not just want and/or are entertaining a new job, no?

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've hit the nail on the head. I appreciate the situation with companies. The "black hole" exists because they can't possibly deal humanly with every inquiry. To me, the question is: Why is the situation so asymmetric? Why is job hunting such a "seller's market?" Why do companies get hundreds, or thousands, of applications for one open position? It's like everyone who does similar work is continually submitting the…

You send out 100 applications to get a job, the company gets 100 applications per job. Where is the asymmetry?

It can become asymmetric based on how onerous the application process. Some tech companies have candidates do online exams, some even projects. The exam/project can take a day to complete. The company can just ignore the results for all but a handful of candidates...that is pretty asymmetric.

Ideally, the company should only push onerous application processes to applications once the list has been whittled down a bit, or only push them in cases where the results will actually be reviewed.

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#174

Whenever this subject comes up, predictably the answer here is always Blah blah blah network network network. For a demographic always looking for the scalable solution to a problem, HN seems pretty attached to the least scalable option. The numbers just don't make sense to me. Let's generously assume that you meet and have excellent working relationships with 100 people at each of the 4 jobs you've had. Of those 400…

> Whenever this subject comes up, predictably the answer here is always [...] network network network. [...] The numbers just don't make sense to me.

Yet networking, in one form or another, is how many if not most people land their jobs. Perhaps a poll is in order here?

I suspect your definition of what constitutes "a network" is what makes the odds you calculate look like a search for extraterrestrial intelligence. It's nothing like that.

If we did a poll right here, I would wager that more people got their current position through a third party lead or inside contact than through submission to an online job application.

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#175
post #87

I've literally never gotten a job by sending out resumes. Every single job I've had I got through some connection or another. I actually refused to send my current job a resume. The conversation went like this: Can you send them a resume? No- here's my LinkedIn. But can you send them a resume? No- here's my LinkedIn. OK, can you come in for an interview? Interview. A month passes. Can you come in for another intervie…

Counter point, I have gotten two job offers by just submitting resumes online. But I work in a state without tons of competing talent, so that could help.

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#176
post #111

The issue here is that it's very, very difficult to figure out if someone can code, at all, from a resume. You might have a masters in CS and still be hopeless when it comes to actually writing even very simple things. You'd be surprised at how often that is the case... So, when I hire, I do so through through connections. I ask friends "Do you know anyone who can actually code who is looking for a job?" And if it's…

I once interviewed a candidate who claimed to have a PhD from a US university. He was applying to be an architect of DevOps. He didn't get through my interview and I only have my Bachelor since 2014. As usual, the night before the interview I printed out his resume and the resume was about 5 pages long. I was not too happy about long resume, especially I spotted inconsistent formatting issue there. That's sloppy. Lat…

You sure wasted a lot of time on an obviously unsuitable candidate.

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#177

Whenever this subject comes up, predictably the answer here is always Blah blah blah network network network. For a demographic always looking for the scalable solution to a problem, HN seems pretty attached to the least scalable option. The numbers just don't make sense to me. Let's generously assume that you meet and have excellent working relationships with 100 people at each of the 4 jobs you've had. Of those 400…

> Let's generously assume that you meet and have excellent working relationships with 100 people at each of the 4 jobs you've had. You need to realize that social life and networking goes well beyond your workplace.

This! Meetups, conferences, and social events are all great places to meet someone who might know someone who needs you skills.

Yes, the connection will be far weaker than any connection with a former colleague, but sometimes all you need is an inside connection to make your resume stand out just a bit more and to be that less of an unknown.

Weak connections actually being you into vastly different networks.

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wonder if there's also a technological new service that could change all this?

Have none of you people heard of linkedin?

Yes. I don't get why people hate on LinkedIn so much. Well I do get it, but the value of, as a friend put it, a Rolodex where someone else does the updating is tremendous when prospecting for a new job.

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#179
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when I was deeply interested in those jobs, and took my time tailoring the applications to them. I don't usually mass-send my CV, I prefer to shortlist jobs and focus on them. See, I would appreciate at least a note about the outcomes. But it's either no contact or it drags on for ages until they somehow realise that the position is no longer available. It's a bit unbelievable, and I'm starting to doubt myself. T…

I would honestly question why you are spending a long time tailoring an application, or pinning hopes on any one application. I wouldn't say I mass send CVs - but I try not to spend over an hour because I don't see it as a good time investment. Anyway I'm hardly an expert, but this attitude and process has helped me.

Why? Because there are two extremes here:

1) Selectively applying only for positions in companies where you truly care about the specifics of the role and the overall purpose of the company, because you want a specialised role and/or professional progression.

2) Indiscriminately applying for anything which vaguely seems like you might be able to do, even if it's not a good match and you care little about it.

I've not done a huge amount of interviewing, but last time I did so it was painfully obvious which categories the CVs fell into. All the (2) applicants were immediately rejected on the grounds of not meeting the required job criteria or were ranked much lower than the (1) candidates for not having relevant experience in the area or zero demonstrated interest in the area or specific position either on paper or in the interview.

You must tailor both the CV and cover letter to make a good impression. That's the careers advice I was given, and it's good advice. Not taking the time to do so makes it much more likely your application will be rejected outright, or be ranked below better applications. If your application doesn't demonstrate any clear interest or specific aptitude for the position, it's going to naturally make you appear less desirable than candidates with the same skills which do. The CV is selling you to the people reading it, and if no effort is made to market your skills and experience for the position on offer, then you're selling yourself short.

Last time I had to apply for a job, I spent a lot of time looking over job listings, and submitted four applications to four places, all tailored bar one. I got four interviews and three job offers. The hours spent tailoring each application paid off in terms of the response. And I got a job in a field I cared about, rather than something random. The one I didn't get an offer for was with Google, and that was mostly untailored because they weren't hiring for a specific role; I wouldn't have accepted an offer in any event, so no loss for that one!

Re: Thanks for Submitting Your Résumé to This Black Hole

#180
post #64
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had one recruiter asking me for the exact dates of my past contracts, four times . It took a great deal of patience to repeatedly explain that they are already in the CV, just next to the company name and job title. In the end, I had to screenshot and red-circle the areas. That was the aha moment. I'm not sure if this is laziness or what. But it does tell me that they don't care very much.

I'd have to really want a job or really need a job to put up with that sort of behavior. For all other situations I have close to a zero tolerance policy.

For those type of scenarios I tell myself, "this is the HR department not the department I'm actually applying into." Keeps me from painting the good people who are competent with the same brush as the idiots from the department I'd actually have to deal with.
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