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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#171

Post by BadassFractal »

HiResSleep wrote: post #130

People who forward the feminist narrative always insist that they are interested in having a "conversation", but this is a lie, as evidenced by this statement. Agreement with my position proves my position. Disagreement with my position proves my position. You're not interested in speaking with people who disagree with you. A dialogue you want not. You wish to have a monologue, where you are the teacher and anyone wh…

One of the major issues here is that if you disagree with the currently fashionable narrative then you're immediately painted as a sexist. It's completely binary: you're either on the side of the narrative OR you're a bigot to be purged, a heretic to be burned at the social stake, there is no room for inquiry, debate or applying critical thinking.

Accusing someone of being a bigot is 100% risk free, it's all upside, the accuser is always safe on a moral pedestal.

Even going meta like I did gets you flagged, case in point.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#172

Post by microcolonel »

charles-salvia wrote: post #139
mikeash wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be that teaching was predominantly male and programming was predominantly female. Now it's flipped. Did something change in our biology?

Programmer salaries went up. Teaching salaries went down.

The programmer role also changed, as far as I'm aware. I think there used to be more separation between program designers/architects and the people who would translate the requirements and punch/verify cards, and operate switchboards. I think the people at the bottom of that chain were called programmers.

The definition of the role is at least somewhat different today. It could also have something to do with the wide availability of women who were trained typists in the '50s and '60s, as keyboards were used to punch cards/tape.

I won't purport to be an expert on exactly how that phenomenon came about, I've not seen a satisfactory explanation of it.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#173

Post by xor1 »

phlakaton wrote: post #104

If ever I had a notion that an expression of solidarity for women in tech was unnecessary or quixotic, the response to this article on this very forum would be sufficient to dispel it.

From what I've seen, there are less African-American and non-white hispanic men in tech than there are white and Asian women, yet I never see this discussed. Is this not an important issue as well? Will skewed racial ratios only be handled after gender parity has been achieved? Or do they not matter at all?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#174

Post by ar15saveslives »

zephyrthenoble wrote: post #21

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

If they make less than men, why don't companies hire women alone? Don't they want to save money on salaries?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#175

Post by sanswork »

pyronik wrote: post #133
smt88 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your experience that of a woman? If not, you really have no idea whether it's overblown or not.

By that logic, women can never know if there is sexism because they don't have all that mythical privilege to compare it to. I'd love to see one time ... one time.. there be a focus on the disparity between men and women in waste services, janitorial services, etc. We accept they don't prefer those jobs but suddenly in tech (since it became sexy) its now a problem?

>I'd love to see one time ... one time.. there be a focus on the disparity between men and women in waste services, janitorial services, etc.

Why?

>We accept they don't prefer those jobs but suddenly in tech (since it became sexy) its now a problem?

You answered this yourself. One of the fields is desirable and the other isn't so of course there is going to be more concern about the desirable one.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#176

Post by xor1 »

Tsagadai wrote: post #132
Pigo wrote: post #4

"continued pay disparity" here we go...

It definitely exists. Consider the pay disparity between men who negotiate well versus those who don't. Now look at HR studies that show women rarely negotiate (no links to studies from me right now but I have heard this anecdotally from hiring managers and I have read this before in business mags). Do you see how a problem can evolve? Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money t…

HR in the US is overwhelmingly women. Maybe it's an issue of women negotiating with other women.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#177

Post by hexane360 »

ar15saveslives wrote: post #174
zephyrthenoble wrote: post #21

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

If they make less than men, why don't companies hire women alone? Don't they want to save money on salaries?

Because women are subconsciously undervalued as workers.

This discussion is complex and it's not entirely obvious how much of the pay gap is caused by discrimination, but this is one stupid argument.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#178

Post by sanswork »

microcolonel wrote: post #93
zephyrthenoble wrote: post #21

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

You really have to ask yourself: Why would women, as a cohort, make the same amount per individual as men? Do you assume that nothing can be different enough between men and women to reasonably justify the statistics? I know of women who are paid more than me in tech, and I know why. I know of women who are paid less than me, and I can think of n reasons why. As for sheer numbers, ask yourself: are there any industri…

Your whole argument is that people are biologically set to specific roles because in some countries where they have the free choice they still go for those roles. But that ignores the fact that even in those societies children are still constantly bombarded with messages telling them what their gender should be when they grow up.

You're looking at the finish line and making an answer while ignoring the fact that they are placed on different courses from birth.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#179

Post by ar15saveslives »

Tsagadai wrote: post #132
Pigo wrote: post #4

"continued pay disparity" here we go...

It definitely exists. Consider the pay disparity between men who negotiate well versus those who don't. Now look at HR studies that show women rarely negotiate (no links to studies from me right now but I have heard this anecdotally from hiring managers and I have read this before in business mags). Do you see how a problem can evolve? Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money t…

So why is it a problem? Go ahead and negotiate your salary, why should we (or government?) help you fix your own personality?

> Do you know whether your equally skilled female colleagues are making less money than you?

BS argument.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#180

Post by xor1 »

lgas wrote: post #148
smt88 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your experience that of a woman? If not, you really have no idea whether it's overblown or not.

Can only women be victims of sexism then?

Plenty of people actually have this position, "you can only be racist or sexist if you have power", i.e you belong to the dominant sex or race.

The truth is that power is based on wealth and class, not your gender, race, or ethnicity.

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