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Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

sprott.physics.wisc.edu

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Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#171

Post by krapp »

colordrops wrote: post #165
krapp wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you try to apply supernatural concepts to the natural world, you either have to dismiss the relevance of the body of scientific knowledge which contradicts the premises of magical thinking, and assume that the universe doesn't actually follow any knowable physical laws, or explain it within the constraints of what is known to be true in the universe in which we live. There is no scientifically credible evidence…

You are making far too many assumptions here. I said nothing of "supernatural" or "unscientific" ideas, and "magical thinking" is an insult in my opinion. I said nothing of the mind and brain being separate entities or astral projection or ESP. You are applying your own failure of imagination in explaining the concept within your limited realm of knowledge and projecting it onto me. You are mistaking explanation for…

You're essentially claiming that "the map is not the territory," which is correct and, indeed, a fundamental scientific premise.

However, for the models that science provides to be useful, they need to appear, predictably and repeatably, to describe the real world. I don't know what science will look like in ten thousand years (and neither do you) but given that current knowledge of physics, biology, neuroscience, etc do seem true to a reasonable degree, it seems unlikely that the science of the future would somehow discredit modern science entirely, while coincidentally validating a more primitive, shamanic point of view regarding altered states of consciousness.

Accusing me of being ignorant and self-centered in defense of a premise you can't support beyond faith and personal belief seems hypocritical. And as far as imagination goes, accepting altered states at face value is literally the least amount of imagination or intellectual effort one can expend in attempting to understand them.

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#172

Post by colordrops »

krapp wrote: post #171
colordrops wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making far too many assumptions here. I said nothing of "supernatural" or "unscientific" ideas, and "magical thinking" is an insult in my opinion. I said nothing of the mind and brain being separate entities or astral projection or ESP. You are applying your own failure of imagination in explaining the concept within your limited realm of knowledge and projecting it onto me. You are mistaking explanation for…

You're essentially claiming that "the map is not the territory," which is correct and, indeed, a fundamental scientific premise. However, for the models that science provides to be useful, they need to appear, predictably and repeatably, to describe the real world. I don't know what science will look like in ten thousand years (and neither do you) but given that current knowledge of physics, biology, neuroscience, et…

Once again, assumptions. "A more primitive, shamanic point of view". "faith, personal belief". This is quite the opposite. No one is asking you to believe anything. There is no presumption of human-like deities without a shred I'd evidence. There is just direct, personal observation of phenomena. Choosing the most obvious explanation for it doesn't make it pseudoscientific crankery. It is just a first pass of a hypothesis without much evidence for anything else. And it is no more or less valid than other hypothesis.

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#173

Post by JabavuAdams »

colordrops wrote: post #111
JabavuAdams wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe people here have more knowledge of neuroscience, and physics, than the general population? Knowledge brings biases, of course. But those biases aren't necessarily wrong. You have a blind-spot (at least one) on each retina that you never see. Does this mean that there is a secret hole in reality, just out of sight, that science won't accept? Or does it mean that there's an area on your retina with no visual sens…

I'm not saying that the experience is not likely an illusion. But its funny that you mention a blind spot, because why entertain every theory except the most obvious one?

What is obvious depends on your prior beliefs. To me, it's a lot more obvious that messing with your brain causes hallucinations, especially when we can program similar hallucinations in neural-inspired programs.

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#174

Post by anigbrowl »

michaelmrose wrote: post #147
anigbrowl wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's my experience. I investigate theoretical models but I don't have the math skills to develop the idea more rigorously at present.

Can you elaborate on "I investigate theoretical models"? Are you involved in some branch of math or science?

No this is strictly amateur hour and most of my ideas are probably not even wrong. If I went into any more detail I'd feel like a crank, though :)

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#175

Post by anigbrowl »

abecedarius wrote: post #160
anigbrowl wrote: post #68

I believe this world is basically a playpen in a universe having 5 spatial dimensions. I've had a very interesting side-effect immediately after coming back from a DMT trip of being able to see around things. Like you look at a box on the table in front of you and you can see the side facing away from you. Faded gradually after 5 minutes. This seems like extremely fruitful territory for trying with ESP test cards, MR…

"A few experimental attempts have been made to elicit parapsychological phenomena through the controlled administration of LSD-type substances... None of them produced statistically significant results" http://stanleykrippner.weebly.com/lsd-and-parapsychological-...

Not surprising. I've only had this experience with DMT and am skeptical that it's perceptual rather than imaginary, but a) I couldn't think of a better way to describe it and b) it was really hard to ignore.

It's not something I've ever seen referred to in other people's reports, though I don't really keep up with research in this area. I have no hesitation in saying that DMT fundamentally altered my worldview though.

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#176

Post by krapp »

colordrops wrote: post #172
krapp wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're essentially claiming that "the map is not the territory," which is correct and, indeed, a fundamental scientific premise. However, for the models that science provides to be useful, they need to appear, predictably and repeatably, to describe the real world. I don't know what science will look like in ten thousand years (and neither do you) but given that current knowledge of physics, biology, neuroscience, et…

Once again, assumptions. "A more primitive, shamanic point of view". "faith, personal belief". This is quite the opposite. No one is asking you to believe anything. There is no presumption of human-like deities without a shred I'd evidence. There is just direct, personal observation of phenomena. Choosing the most obvious explanation for it doesn't make it pseudoscientific crankery. It is just a first pass of a hypot…

The hypothesis you're presenting not the most obvious, Because it requires discrediting existing and established science and starting over from "direct, personal observation of phenomena," as if humanity hadn't already been doing that for centuries, with the cumulative effort of that observation being precisely the process by which we arrived at the conclusions that modern science reaches.

The flat earth may once have been obvious to many people, but it would be absurd to expect anyone to approach any modern discussion about geology from a first principle that all hypotheses regarding the shape of the earth are equally valid, and require that the curvature of the earth be reproven with each discussion. Some hypotheses have evidence to support them, some don't, and there is good reason to assume that the hypotheses which have evidence are more true than those which don't.

Now, mind you, sometimes the hypothesis with evidence is proven false, because the nature of the evidence has been misunderstood. Miasma theory was proven false by germ theory. The luminiferous aether was proven false by quantum mechanics. The solid state universe was proven false by cosmic expansion. Plenty of accepted science has been proven false. Hell, people once believed the only reason the brain existed was to keep the skull nice and round.

But you have to prove the existing paradigm wrong before you assert that another is more correct.

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#177

Post by justatdotin »

byuu wrote: post #34
nhaliday wrote: post #23

I have no idea what a DMT trip is actually like but I liked the depiction in Enter the Void: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCIe9gh84NE .

Just a fair warning, I've never once seen a depiction of the effects of any kind of psychedelic drug that matched the effects I've personally experienced. And I've tried quite a few of them. A lot of the experience is the head space and body load, which you're just never going to get from way over the top visual approximations. If you haven't experienced those, you aren't going to be able to imagine them very accurat…

the visuals in Enter the Void _understate_ those offered by dmt

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#178

Post by justatdotin »

GuiA wrote: post #16

There is some evidence that seems to indicate that the humans have an evolved "built in" reaction to snake/snake like patterns: http://www.psychologicalscience.org/journals/cd/12_1/Ohman.c... As reptiles, snakes may have signified deadly threats in the environment of early mammals. We review findings suggesting that snakes remain special stimuli for humans. Intense snake fear is prevalent in both humans and other pri…

straya represent: walking home one night at about the 8th hr (so definitely coming down). It had rained so much the path was covered in water, and the frogs were out making a racket. There was a pinch on my heel, and I thought I felt a yabby grabbing hold of me. I shook my leg to shake it off, and looked back to find someone long and snakey hanging off my heel - obviously a harmless treesnake hunting the frogs. My mindstate immediately leapt up a level, and the path was writhing with snakes the whole way home.

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#179

Post by saywatnow »

abecedarius wrote: post #159
saywatnow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This makes sense, as humans have co-evolved along venomous snakes for presumably a very long time. I always find appeals to evolution for phenomena like this a bit weak. In the Darwinian sense, this response would have to be a random mutation that is environmentally selected for. Not a biologist, but that seems a very high-order function to be subject to random mutations.

That's a general argument against any complex adaptation. Here's some experimental evidence I found on a quick search: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... (I only skimmed this paper.)

Thanks! That's excellent. Different measurements from populations with varying exposure to snakes certainly seems to weigh in favour of an evolutionary explanation.

> That's a general argument against any complex adaptation.

I know my comment looks remarkably close to typical poorly-informed arguments for ID (eyeballs, even bananas lol), which probably explains the poor reaction to it. There's a lot of fuzzy thinking about evolution all round, and I'm just as guilty of it as the next person.

Thanks for taking the time to give me a good read :).

Re: Why Do DMT Users See Insects from a Parallel Universe?

#180

Post by abecedarius »

saywatnow wrote: post #179
abecedarius wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a general argument against any complex adaptation. Here's some experimental evidence I found on a quick search: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.... (I only skimmed this paper.)

Thanks! That's excellent. Different measurements from populations with varying exposure to snakes certainly seems to weigh in favour of an evolutionary explanation. > That's a general argument against any complex adaptation. I know my comment looks remarkably close to typical poorly-informed arguments for ID (eyeballs, even bananas lol), which probably explains the poor reaction to it. There's a lot of fuzzy thinking…

You're welcome! I actually agree that it feels weird that selection can work effectively on such a long chain of causes between genes and behaviors. It'll be exciting to learn more.
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