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I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

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Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#171

Post by icu »

rtpg wrote: post #157
andrewstuart wrote: post #117

Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry? Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback". The hav…

The question now: how big is his base? His approval is in free fall. What's the low point? 40%? 30%? 20%? The French president was at one point at 8% approval.

The only thing that matters now is Trump's approval in the next election.

If he keeps his voter base happy and is seen to be actually doing more things right than wrong he may even pick up more votes.

I honestly can't think of one Democrat at the moment who can take Trump on. They would have to be whiter than fresh snow and 'straight talking' and pro-economic growth and sensible immigration enough to swing Trump supporters... quite an ask.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#172

Post by dingaling »

rtpg wrote: post #46
redsummer wrote: post #37

This is hysteria. "he signed an executive order that literally, not figuratively, banned Muslims from entering the US" Of the 10 countries with the largest Muslim populations, only one - Iran - has been restricted: http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_proje... The list of countries was previously drawn up by the Obama administration. I'm not in favor of the restrictions, but there is no need to make…

- It was a ban of people from 7 muslim-dominated countries - It excepts non-Muslims (religious test) - It includes dual-citizens, and permanent residents. Even when you become the citizen of another country, you're still tainted according to the EO. Even when you've been vetted for the green card, you're still tainted. - Guiliani is on the record that Trump said "I want a Muslim ban" and this was drafted to be the "m…

> Guiliani gave what he thought to be a muslim ban,

It's pretty poor as an effort if that's what it was meant to be. At least 70% of the World's Muslim population aren't banned.

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/muslims/pf_15-04-02_proje...

I'm not even a USian but I find myself posting on these threads because otherwise-rational people are posting irrational, inaccurate statements.

We wouldn't accept people saying 'withdrawing FTP access for kernel.org is a ban on FTP!!!'. So why don't we extend that rationality to other domains?

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#173

Post by jondubois »

andrewstuart wrote: post #117

Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry? Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback". The hav…

I bet that there are a lot of Americans who completely disagree with Trump's policies and yet at the same time they feel avenged by them.

The working class enjoys watching the elites get worked up and horrified about Trump.

I think that this election is a manifestation of inter-class conflicts according to "Maslow's hierarchy of needs" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs ).

On one side, we have the working class made up of people who don't care too much about moral ideals because they can barely afford the "Safety" step on the Maslow pyramid.

On the other side, we have the elites who don't seem to care about the daily struggles of the working class and instead prefer to indulge their need for self-actualization by focusing on convenient moral ideals instead of inconvenient practicalities.

Why weren't any of these celebrities protesting when Washington bailed out the big banks during the financial crisis? That issue had much more significant ramifications on the average American but the elites didn't care because doing something about it would have hurt their stock portfolios.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#174

Post by vacri »

hueving wrote: post #79
verbify wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he is an outsider to the established system He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million. He didn't pay his taxes. His chief of staff was chairman of the Republican party. His cabinet have a combined net worth of $6 billion. If anyone represents the powers-that-be, he does. If anyone has a glib marketing campaign, it's the Trump presidency in claiming to be 'outsiders'. And if you think the political system…

>He's a billionaire who inherited around $750 million He didn't inherit it with a bunch of strings attached from lobbyists. The Clintons have been pulling money into their foundation leveraging political connections built up over decades. People don't care that he's rich with daddy's money, they care that it's not "decades of political speeches and political fundraising money". >He didn't pay his taxes He would be a…

> People don't care that he's rich with daddy's money, they care that it's not "decades of political speeches and political fundraising money".

They don't care about either of those things. His supporters backed him because he said things they wanted to hear, no matter how outrageous they were.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#175

Post by eeZah7Ux »

rtpg wrote: post #35
aedron wrote: post #5

You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo. That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib mark…

"Both parties are the same" is such a tired meme considering what has happened the past 8 days. Do you think President Clinton would be defunding planned parenthood? Planning a repeal of a healthcare law without a replacement, making 20 million people lose their health insurance immediately? Appoint a brain surgeon to HUD? Do you think Democrats would set up this muslim ban? Not a 6-month refugee ban, but a ban from…

> "Both parties are the same" is such a tired meme considering what has happened the past 8 days.

"Both parties are the same" is not meant literally, and usually people mean "both parties are bad". It's about the illusion of choice.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#176

Post by mdemare »

m_fayer wrote: post #136
aedron wrote: post #5

You know what a lot of people consider worse than Donald Trump? The status quo. That's what I feel is missing in all this indignation - where were you before? The political system has been deeply broken for decades, with the same unjust policies being pursued regardless of which public face was on it - imperialist militaristic foreign policies abroad, economic inequality at home. All sold to the public with glib mark…

The idea that the political system was "deeply broken" before Trump is a popular meme these days, one that IMO is utopian, ahistorical, and increasingly destructive. Rule of law and representative democracy, as we know them today, are quite young, and the modern take on basic human rights is even younger. When did black people win full equality in the US, even in the legal sense? When did Western colonialism in the m…

Exactly. People look at their government and give it 1/5 stars, then vote for anyone promising change, because they think they have nothing to lose. But the range doesn't start at 1 star. It goes down to minus infinity.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#177

Post by RodericDay »

rdtsc wrote: post #73

> As of 2017, the United States, through a sequence of highly improbable events, managed to elect an extremely controversial president. I think it a mistake to see this as a random fluke and chuck it up to chance. It seems like chance to those who were asleep or were watching news from their own bubble. Trump is a symptom of something that was already there probably decades in the making. If we ignore the conditions…

Best post by a mile. Not only did America elect Trump, Sanders also did mighty fine for someone who in years past would be considered unelectable.

People pass around figures about GDP and low unemployment to prove to themselves things are absolutely fine, but then you dig further and you find that many feel lost and desperate.

Obama said "America is already great", and many people found it a vomit-inducing quip. In many ways liberals brought this upon themselves.

I find similarities in how liberals deal with Trump and how americans in general dealt with 9/11. "They hate us for our freedoms" is a much more palatable idea than thinking about systemic dynamics.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#178

Post by mdemare »

andrewstuart wrote: post #117

Addressing the concerns of the Trump supporters is the only way forward. Why are they angry? Silicon Valley - one of the richest sectors of society, is up in arms because the disenfranchised "have nots" are expressing their anger about being "have nots" by just tearing the whole damn thing down. The "have nots" say - through Trump and his actions - "OK, you got everything, we got nothing, here's the payback". The hav…

Have nots? Trump voters were richer than Clinton voters.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#179

Post by eeZah7Ux »

noelwelsh wrote: post #83
MisterWebz wrote: post #8

Bombing predominately Muslim countries, overthrowing governments and covert black sites where Muslims get tortured. These are things that are acceptable, but a 90-day ban on immigrants coming from war-torn countries, that's a step too far? Has everyone seriously lost their mind?

Imagine you're a person who was strongly against "[b]ombing predominately Muslim countries, overthrowing governments[,] and covert black sites where Muslims get tortured". Now imagine that the US has just elected a president far more conservative (and volatile!) than his predecessor, and a result there is a widespread movement for progressive political change, in line with your beliefs, from people who are normally n…

What you call "bitch and moan" can be a useful reminder of how people tent do overestimate what happens in proximity and overlook what happens in a remote location.

Re: I'm Loyal to Nothing Except the Dream

#180

Post by vacri »

hueving wrote: post #55
sergiosgc wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social response is rarely linear. Think of it as gaining critical mass. Think of it as the droplet that overflows the glass of water. What happened before was wrong. What is happening now is worse, and it got more of the public's attention.

No, the sad part is that this is getting so much more attention because it's visible here and it's the result of a new party in charge. Obama's administration was quietly murdering people without trials in a country we aren't at war with from drones. I fail to see how a temporary immigration ban is "worse" other than the "out of sight, out of mind" effect that applies to those exterminated by drones.

The administration before Obama started a needless war with a country that was no threat to them, that resulted in the deaths of literally hundreds of thousands of people, the destruction of two sovereign countries, and set in motion a sequence of events that has Europe tearing itself apart. All to get an electoral boost for the 2004 election...
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