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China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

bbc.com

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Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#171

Post by pixelbill »

Cyph0n wrote: post #164
pixelbill wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whales are not endangered. Some types of whales are endangered. In fact, most Humpback species were removed from the endangered list. http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/07/492976575/... Good for you that you're disgusted by someone else's culture, I'm sure they feel the same way about you. I am just sick of the hypocrisy that so many people show. Ever kill a mouse in a mouse trap? That's a life gone for n…

My bad regarding whales then. But still, I believe whalers don't "use" the whole whale, right? It used to be blubber, not sure what it is now. Dude, living in this beautiful and multi-cultural world is a great blessing, but you have to offend someone's culture eventually. There is simply no way to satisfy everyone, which is why this whole PC movement is silly imo. Yes, that's basically it: you may think no animals sh…

Whale hunters in Japan (where they have gotten a lot of criticism in recent years) most certainly do use the whole whale, or at least most of it. They eat the meat; so it's no more wasteful than eating a cow, pig, chicken. It may have been the case that they used to just harvest the blubber, but don't think it's cost effective to even do that any more (crude oil is way, way cheaper).

I'm not sure where I ever said no animals should be killed, quite the opposite in fact. I don't have an issue with ANY animal being killed. However I realize that some people DO have an issue with only certain animals being killed and not others; that is the hypocrisy.

It seems the basis of your entire argument is that you just want to do what the majority says is okay to do. That's a cool way to live your life I guess, but at least try to think for yourself every now and again.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#172

Post by adamnemecek »

pixelbill wrote: post #170
adamnemecek wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's your takeaway form the paper? $200M isn't much on a continental scale. Also where exactly is this money going? "New legislation is also required to tackle some problems associated with trophy hunting. For example, ownership of wildlife should be devolved to communities to permit direct receipt of benefits from hunting and thus create clear incentives for sustainable wildlife management" Yeah, that will be e…

The GDP of the entire content of Africa is $2.39 trillion, just the USA alone has a GDP 7x their entire content. It would be roughly equivalent to bringing in $1.4 billion into the US economy. Do you have any actual evidence to add to your argument? Or just more ignorant sarcasm?

> Do you have any actual evidence to add to your argument?

No, just like you don't. The paper you posted doesn't cut it because it only discusses how much money was made, not the wellbeing of the fauna.

> $1.4 billion into the US economy.

So that's relatively nothing.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#173

Post by truth_sentinell »

pixelbill wrote: post #170
adamnemecek wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's your takeaway form the paper? $200M isn't much on a continental scale. Also where exactly is this money going? "New legislation is also required to tackle some problems associated with trophy hunting. For example, ownership of wildlife should be devolved to communities to permit direct receipt of benefits from hunting and thus create clear incentives for sustainable wildlife management" Yeah, that will be e…

The GDP of the entire content of Africa is $2.39 trillion, just the USA alone has a GDP 7x their entire content. It would be roughly equivalent to bringing in $1.4 billion into the US economy. Do you have any actual evidence to add to your argument? Or just more ignorant sarcasm?

And this guy thinks every buck goes directly into tribes and such. Reality check: that's not how the world works. They probably get peanuts -if they get anything at all-. Please stop being delusional and justifying non-sense with more non-sense.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#174

Post by mSparks »

dang wrote: post #168
adamnemecek wrote: post #47

> I think people on HN perceive hunting or ivory trading as something bad such as human trafficking. It isn't. They both involve exploitation and suffering of intelligent and sentient being for selfish reasons. > My great-grandfather was an Ivory trader Your grandfather was a scum and no amount of mental gymnastics will change that. > With increasing government regulation and heavy handed attitude of regulators the e…

I respect how passionately you feel about this topic (and share some of the same feeling), but obviously "Your grandfather was a scum" (a) is completely off limits here, and (b) helps nothing and persuades nobody. Since you care deeply about your cause, you shouldn't undermine it by venting like that. In any case, please don't do so on HN. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13287741…

please take your life somewhere else.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#175

Post by brianwawok »

justicezyx wrote: post #127
kahrkunne wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shark fin was considered a delicacy, but in fact not tasty at all. What a meaningless statement - that is as subjective as can be.

I assume you are not Chinese. Shark fin is populated almost everywhere as some kind of unbelievable delicacy, only the most previleged individuals can afford them. Such illusion is portraited in books, films, casual chats, etc. This type of mysterious image of a thing, which actually is neither delicious nor highly nutritious, makes any banning of such thing impossible. Bescause everyone is convinced that it is that…

I think lobster is not tasty at all. It used to be fed to prisoners 200 years ago. How do we get people to stop fawning over it and admit it's an ocean cochroach?

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#176

Post by mistermann »

truth_sentinell wrote: post #117
mistermann wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not true that some wealthy hunters pay very big dollars to hunt one big game animal, and that money is then used to assist a large number of other animals?

It might be true, but like I said, read the analogy.

This one: "Saying hunting is a solution is like saying killing poor people is a solution to poverty"?

Unless people are paying to kill poor people, and that money is in turn used to benefit poor people, it seems like a poor analogy.

Besides, you seem to think it doesn't matter whether 1 animal dying to save 10 (completely made up numbers). That's fine as a personal philosophy I suppose, but be prepared for people to disagree with you.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#177

Post by mistermann »

adamnemecek wrote: post #155
mistermann wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it not true that some wealthy hunters pay very big dollars to hunt one big game animal, and that money is then used to assist a large number of other animals?

How do you know where the money is going? You can pick an example of what you consider a successful conservation program in an African country and we can speak about it in very concrete terms.

I don't know much about it, other than afaik it is done in some countries and seems like a reasonable idea to me.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#179

Post by okreallywtf »

mistermann wrote: post #115
okreallywtf wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are interested in thoughtful debate on that topic, watch (listen?) to this debate that I heard on the radio a while back and was able to find [1]. My girlfriend and I were on the way back from a run and ended up sitting in the driveway for a good 30 minutes listening. I was leaning towards one side already but not so much that I wasn't open to the arguments of the other side, but I was really impressed overall…

Have you listened to many i2 debates? I've only ever heard one many years ago, can't remember the topic but it was absolutely fantastic, have always intended to check out some others.

This was the first and only one but I couldn't tell you why I didn't immediately go and find more. I think I will now that I have tracked this one down, it feels even more important now given the level of discourse we typically see. I would love to see more people exposed to these kinds of debates, if I was a teacher or involved in schools I would love to play things like this for students.

Re: China announces ban on ivory trade by end of 2017

#180

Post by tn13 »

adamnemecek wrote: post #44
tn13 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree. War on Drugs is a failure and Ivory trade ban would be another failure. Government wants to ban something which people want and some people willing to supply. Unless someone has strong private property right over elephants I don't see how these people are going to change. Ban might increase cost and risks and might lead to serious exploitation of the foot soldiers in this business but it is not going t…

> Totally agree. War on Drugs is a failure and Ivory trade ban would be another failure. They are more dissimilar than similar. Not all illegal goods have the same economics as illegal substances. Kinder Surprise eggs are illegal in the US, yet there isn't much of a market for them. > Government wants to ban something which people want and some people willing to supply. The situation is really different. When people…

> Not all illegal goods have the same economics as illegal substances

Dont see your point. Kinder would not have much demand even if it is illegal as it competes with many other similar products easily available. Ivory appears to me something very similar to marijuana or cocaine than Kinder eggs to me.

> When people go buy ivory, they are buying it to show off their wealth.

You don't have much idea about illegal trade. What makes you think the black market only has shady guys on street peddling smuggled items. Rich people extensively deal in illegal items and get them home delivered in armored car if needed.

> People want luxury goods, not necessarily ivory in particular.

I don't see much of logic. On the contrary Ivory might get far more desirable and much bigger status symbol once it is made illegal. You should remember that every illegal thing in a society eventually has exceptions for powerful. A hand-gun is a big status symbol in India and UK where gun control is hysterical. Same is likely to happen with Ivory.

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