Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS • Hacker News Board

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#171

Post by aecay » Tue, Nov 22, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

eridius wrote: post #167

gshulegaard wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know...from what I can tell it sounds like they removed the usage of Mac OS specific APIs from mainline:: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-01/msg00... Doesn't sound like crippling to me. > Deciding not to implement the feature in the first place, well, that's a reasonable decision given their desire for functionality to be cross-platform. But accepting it, then turning around and removing i…

> Well this ignores the challenge of maintaining an open source project. Presumably Emacs is still using platform-specific APIs for the actual drawing of the text, yes? So properly supporting Mac font rendering should not adversely affect maintenance of Emacs in general, and similarly it should not be any more work to maintain the correct Mac font renderer as it is to maintain the incorrect Mac font renderer.

AFAIK vanilla GNU emacs uses NeXTStep APIs, which are also implemented by the GNUStep project[1]. So if/when X11 (and the many libraries that sit on top of it) learns how to do color emoji, then GNUStep can implement the Mac OS API, and emacs will support it.

The GNU position wrt. Mac support is that only the APIs that GNUStep also supports can be used. You may disagree with the principles underlying that choice, but it is a long-standing policy of the project. It was a mistake (according to this policy) for them to merge the emoji support, and when the mistake was pointed out they removed it. So it's a bit more nuanced than your comment makes out.

[1] http://www.gnustep.org/

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#172

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Tue, Nov 22, 2016, 11:51 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #160

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's a tape archiver, why is it allowed to write to disk? Check and mate.

tar isn't allowed or disallowed to write to disk -- f specifies a device, and that device just happens to be a file on a filesystem. Since everything on UNIX is a file, even a tape drive, even a huge 6,000 tape silo with 128 tape drives is multiple files under /dev/rmt/, this does not violate the principle. To put this into perspective for you, you could use the block device /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s2 as a tar file to write a…

I've been using unix since 1992, starting with ultrix, then going to sunos, netbsd, solaris, linux, tru64, osx, and I think aix was in there somewhere too.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#173

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 12:20 AM UTC

bArray wrote: post #130

Forget GNU making a point, maintenance wise having several versions of your program with several different features could easily become hell. As these coloured smilies grow additional features, get bugs, etc - Emacs for OSX begins to fork. You then have divided developer time, with typically one fork eventually dying due to lack of funds. Apple users: Take the temporary pain to protect your future.

I started poking around the emacs mailing list archives looking for drama, and found some messages from this month from RMS getting nervous about the idea of removing support for windows 9x.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#174

Post by bArray » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 4:23 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #173

bArray wrote: post #130

Forget GNU making a point, maintenance wise having several versions of your program with several different features could easily become hell. As these coloured smilies grow additional features, get bugs, etc - Emacs for OSX begins to fork. You then have divided developer time, with typically one fork eventually dying due to lack of funds. Apple users: Take the temporary pain to protect your future.

I started poking around the emacs mailing list archives looking for drama, and found some messages from this month from RMS getting nervous about the idea of removing support for windows 9x.

That's great! Have you got a link?

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#175

Post by Annatar » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 7:11 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #155

Annatar wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the fact that tar is a tape archiver, and according to the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" it should empathically not dub as a (de)compressor. GNU implements tools inside of other tools. Emacs is a perfect example if that.

tar is a utility for creating and extracting .tar and .tgz files.

No, gzip compressed tape archive has nothing to do with the tape archiver or the archiver format. Pipe the format to stdout without using compression and then it should be pretty obvious. This isn't Windows, Atari TOS or AmigaOS where archivers like pkzip and lha or lzx are also (de)compressors: that is precisely why on UNIX, gzip, compress, bzip2 or xz can only compress one single file and aren't archivers. They're dedicated (de)compressors. cpio, ar, pax and tar serve as dedicated archivers.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#176

Post by Annatar » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 7:36 AM UTC

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #172

Annatar wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

tar isn't allowed or disallowed to write to disk -- f specifies a device, and that device just happens to be a file on a filesystem. Since everything on UNIX is a file, even a tape drive, even a huge 6,000 tape silo with 128 tape drives is multiple files under /dev/rmt/, this does not violate the principle. To put this into perspective for you, you could use the block device /dev/dsk/c0t0d0s2 as a tar file to write a…

I've been using unix since 1992, starting with ultrix, then going to sunos, netbsd, solaris, linux, tru64, osx, and I think aix was in there somewhere too.

But how much have you really learned? And were you an end user or a system administrator? I work with people who have used UNIX for 20-30 years and still don't understand why configuration packages should automatically (re)start a service upon upgrade, stop the service before removal, and start it upon initial install of the configuration package. 30 years of using all kinds of UNIX operating systems and they haven't learned a thing beyond being an end user. And some of these people are developers. So the length of usage isn't crucial, but how much one has learned about the subject -- with an understanding of concepts and ideas behind it. I used all of those you list -- but as my breadth and usage deepened, I sought to understand the principles and ideas behind UNIX.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#177

Post by DocTomoe » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 12:12 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #147

DocTomoe wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you are free to use them. Have fun.

I have, and I will. What about the rest of you?

Well, some will join you. Some will consider the lack of multicoloured emojis in emacs on mac a minor issue at best and continue to use what they do.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#178

Post by GFK_of_xmaspast » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 1:25 PM UTC

bArray wrote: post #174

GFK_of_xmaspast wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I started poking around the emacs mailing list archives looking for drama, and found some messages from this month from RMS getting nervous about the idea of removing support for windows 9x.

That's great! Have you got a link?

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-11/msg00... https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2016-11/msg00...

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#179

Post by makomk » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 3:34 PM UTC

Annatar wrote: post #124

crististm wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remove z option in tar? Where did that come from?

From the fact that tar is a tape archiver, and according to the UNIX philosophy of "do one thing and do it well" it should empathically not dub as a (de)compressor. GNU implements tools inside of other tools. Emacs is a perfect example if that.

The -z option is just a more convenient way of piping the tarball through gzip at the appropriate time. GNU tar doesn't actually contain its own (de)compressor. You can also get it to use a compression program of your choice.

Re: Bye Bye Emojis: Emacs Hates MacOS

#180

Post by Annatar » Wed, Nov 23, 2016, 4:23 PM UTC

DocTomoe wrote: post #177

Annatar wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have, and I will. What about the rest of you?

Well, some will join you. Some will consider the lack of multicoloured emojis in emacs on mac a minor issue at best and continue to use what they do.

I wasn't referring to emojis, but to GNU and GNU/Linux. GNU and Stallman are the culprits here; Emacs is just a symptom.