So total student loan debt is something like 10% of the cost of the Iraq / Afghanistan war. Tell me again how it's not affordable to make college free, when it's affordable to spend so much money on an unnecessary military intervention?
U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
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Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#172Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…
"Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option?" Imagine what would happen if the US government made student loans interest free. Who would gain, and who would lose? (1) Students could afford to take out larger loans (as the repayments would be more affordable with 0% interest vs. 4.66% interest) (2) As a result of (1) colleges could charge higher tuition fees, without reducing the number of students…
This is also why counties that do this also regulate the cost of tuition.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel like the value of adversity is lost sometimes on HN. We should be especially familiar with it. Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Some times a struggle is not a bad thing. Not to the point where one should be homeless or starving of course, but having every…
> Earning a high level of income makes life extraordinarily comfortable, to the point where it is easy to become complacent and stop trying to really contribute to society in a meaningful way. Earning a high level of income in general already signifies that a person is contributing to society in a meaningful way. Their income is reflective of the service provided to others. All corporations exist to better the lives…
> Sometimes people get rich through scams, fraud, theft, and other shady dealings, but in a society with law and order, this is the exception rather than the rule.
How about inherited wealth? Large groups of people are excluded from your wonderful vision of society.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#174This is so obviously a scam that I don't see how it can hold up. Tuition has gone to sky high levels, and who is getting that money? Not the professors, let's get real. They have probably gotten sweet raises, but nowhere near the growth rate of tuition. The armies of "administrators" are getting huge salaries, but the main point of the whole bubble is that it is a great way to proactively enslave a whole new generati…
>Not the professors, let's get real. They have probably gotten sweet raises, but nowhere near the growth rate of tuition. Actually, at most institutions, professors' raises barely match the rate of inflation , and the majority of teaching has been moved onto adjunct faculty who have no job security.
yeah but have you seen the new leisure center!
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
When it comes to student loans though, they should be given on someone's potential ability to actually pay them back, which is dependent on future career prospects. I'm not against Arts or offering scholarships/grants for them. What I'm against is allowing a person to take out $160,000 of debt at 6% interest for an education that will land them a job as an administrative assistant. They will most likely carry that de…
This. Banks give home/auto/business loans based on value of the home and ability to pay. Why not have similar metrics for education?
Because there is no collateral for education.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#176Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…
I'd like to propose a different option, one that would actually solve a lot of the current problems in the USA ... before posting a response, please read the 'why' section below. - The government stops guaranteeing student debt to banks - Students are allowed to declare bankruptcy and discharge their debt after N number of years, if they can prove that they're financially unable to pay & the market will not bear a sa…
Having a system where you revoke the degree for lack of payment would just create a system where revoked degrees would be equally valuable, since everyone would know they were the same, except for some bank being ripped off.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#177There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…
You really don't need to pay tuition to gain a rich education in art and humanities and sciences if you want one. There are resources aplenty - buy a book! I'd even go so far as to say the majority of college grads learned almost nothing during college, and the few who did would, after a few years of maturity, pick up a book of their own free will and enrich themselves. I think the costs of university (huge amounts o…
Just reading a book is a not an effective way to learn, and the value of university is not that they make you read a bunch of books. The real value comes from interaction around that material with researchers and fellow students and being 'forced' to engage with that material to solve problems and doing your own research, as well as the feedback you get on that work.
Now I'll certainly agree that the cost of a University education in the US is much too high, and there are probably more efficient ways to get the same educational benefits, but to say that you can replace Universities with books is simply disingenuous.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#178There seems to be a strong sentiment in this thread that the only value provided by education is the contribution to career (e.g. that loans should only be provided for financially viable courses, that studying arts is as useful to one's career as studying finger painting, etc). This just seems so wrong. Optimising for vocational training means you're effectively tuning out the abstract arts and sciences and... oh, t…
Where you are wrong is that it's not just about money, it's about accountability. Smart investing is the same whether the returns are financial or something else (citizenship, etc.): Someone needs to make good decisions about which investments are good and which aren't. If I believed your romantic notion of the humanities reflected reality in the classroom, that would be a great investment. But I don't believe that's…
Sure, through the lens of "smart investing", an arts degree is a shitty investment, and therefore shouldn't be funded. I just think that's a bit reductive, and that the value provided by those programs can be hard to quantify.
I agree that many students probably gain nothing at all from studying arts, but many do, and become better people, professionals, politicians, etc.
Studying these fields (or communicating with people who have (even watching documentaries)) helps to understand and contextualise the world, and to articulate those (often complex and abstract) ideas.
Of course, many people come away with nothing, and many with only the most superficial understanding, but an educational climate with less participation in the arts, humanities, theoretical sciences, etc would suffer a net reduction in cultural capital, political discourse, etc.
[*] IMO.
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option?" Imagine what would happen if the US government made student loans interest free. Who would gain, and who would lose? (1) Students could afford to take out larger loans (as the repayments would be more affordable with 0% interest vs. 4.66% interest) (2) As a result of (1) colleges could charge higher tuition fees, without reducing the number of students…
Just for those who aren't aware, the UK[0] system is kind of a mixture between NZ and US. Firstly, all loans are provided by the government and they do charge interest. With the current system (for loans since 2012), the interest rate is based on how much you earn - it varies from 1.6% to 4.6%. The amount you repay is based on how much you earn. If you earn under £21k you don't pay anything. Above that you pay 9% of…
£9,000/year (11 000 USD) is just above the government-subsidized in-state tuition in most places in the US. If you want to go to a school not in the same state as you (so you lose the government subsidy), you will be paying somewhere between twice and 3x as much. Private universities have a higher advertised price, but are more likely to offer tuition grants based on financial need (at the extreme end, if you are from a destitute family but manage to be admitted to Harvard, you will pay little, if any, tuition).
Re: U.S. Citizens Now Hold About $1.3 Trillion in Student Loan Debt
#180Every time I read articles about student loans in the USA, the options are always presented as either the current state, or free tuition. Why are interest free student loans never floated as an option? Here in New Zealand, our student loans are provided by the government and are interest free as long as we reside in New Zealand. It means that people who don't do tertiary education, or who do a trade, don't subsidise…
I think the problem is that there is no downward marker pressure on college costs (for some puzzling reason there). It seems like American students are willing to pay higher and higher tuitions. This is the root of the problem. If we had 0% interest loans, we might have students paying even more for college than now. Why can't these kids just think about the debt they're getting into?
Inflation-adjusted costs of educating a student are largely unchanged in the past 30 years; per-student government subsidies are incredibly low compared to 30 years ago, largely due to the increasing number of students enrolling in college.