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Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#171

Post by gwern »

objectivistbrit wrote: post #169
gwern wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. This is exactly the sort of study you strongly expect the causal conclusion to not obtain and disappear in a randomized study/genetically-sensitive design (anxiety and other mental issues are highly heritable, of course), right up there with such classic sociology non-results as 'children whose fathers leave do worse' or 'children who experience corporal punishment have more behavioral problems' or 'child…

A gwern classic - the second sentence of this wall of text contains 112 words and 14 verbs. I think your tendency to include tons of parenthetical remarks, caveats and every example you can think of, confuses the reader and makes it hard to figure out your essential point.

'I made this comment very long only because I have not had the leisure to make it shorter.'

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#172

Post by gwern »

gwern wrote: post #98
Artoemius wrote: post #3

It might be one of the cases where correlation doesn't imply causation. For an objective study, we would need to assign children to groups randomly. Otherwise, we can miss various obscure selection effects. (For example, if children who are more likely to be scouts, are also likely to be from a particular socioeconomic background).

Definitely. This is exactly the sort of study you strongly expect the causal conclusion to not obtain and disappear in a randomized study/genetically-sensitive design (anxiety and other mental issues are highly heritable, of course), right up there with such classic sociology non-results as 'children whose fathers leave do worse' or 'children who experience corporal punishment have more behavioral problems' or 'child…

And oh yes, since scouting tends to be a family thing where if one son is enrolled in Boy Scouts, the other sons will be too, that means any supposed causal effect of Boy Scouts would fall under 'shared environment' estimates from family & twin designs, which measure the influence of all variables influencing entire families such as parenting choices. And shared environment estimates for anxiety and mental health disorders in general are almost always small. So... if taken at face value, the choice of Boy Scouting or not could explain most or all of a family's influence on anxiety! This seems highly improbable, to say the least.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#173

Post by bootload »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #166
bootload wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When you're 2 days walk from civilisation, it's pissing down with rain, and you're cold, wet, hungry, and tired, you get a different perspective on life and the "soft" challenges that you face in life back home." Milford?

Pretty much anywhere in New Zealand you can be 2 days walk from civilisation.

"anywhere in New Zealand you can be 2 days walk from civilisation"

good point.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#174

Post by gaius »

joakes wrote: post #72
throwaway1892 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that I got from my time as a scout is to live and work with people I can't stand, which is something that has helped me a lot since that time.

Not to take away from scouts, but I feel like this study could apply to any group that a child decides to stick with and learn from. Sports teach resilience and the like, as well does joining a music group. My club soccer team during high school was unbeaten for most seasons and ended up state champions, but most of us didn't hangout afterwards or even like each other.

Not really, playing sports doesn't give the "immersive" experience of spending several days at a time in the back country, sports kit doesn't have the meaning attached to it that a uniform does, etc etc. I was a cadet rather than a scout but even decades later it still shapes my thinking.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#175

Post by gaius »

cmrdporcupine wrote: post #117
redcalx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a selection bias issue here. E.g. if there were some underling genetic disorder that causes anxiety, then that person is less likely to join a group.

Absolutely a huge selection bias. My daughter did Sparks & Brownies and it ended up being a big clique of kids who all went to the same church & school and in the end she (a hyper sensitive, artistic, intellectual type child and a more solitary, introverted type) hated it and asked to quit it. I went through the same thing with Scouts when I was a boy. The kids that remain after the first couple years of cute crafts…

a hyper sensitive, artistic, intellectual type child

Most parents think their children are unique. That's why sending them to a group that wears a uniform is so important.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#176

Post by douche »

gaius wrote: post #174
joakes wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to take away from scouts, but I feel like this study could apply to any group that a child decides to stick with and learn from. Sports teach resilience and the like, as well does joining a music group. My club soccer team during high school was unbeaten for most seasons and ended up state champions, but most of us didn't hangout afterwards or even like each other.

Not really, playing sports doesn't give the "immersive" experience of spending several days at a time in the back country, sports kit doesn't have the meaning attached to it that a uniform does, etc etc. I was a cadet rather than a scout but even decades later it still shapes my thinking.

I dunno, I dumped the Boy Scouts as soon as I started playing sports. It didn't help that there were legitimate, registered sex offenders involved in the leadership of the local troop. But really it was that it was just easier and more fun to just go out in the back country and do stuff on your own than to put up with all the red tape and bureaucracy and fiddle-frigging around that Scouts entailed.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#177

Post by 77pt77 »

jwdunne wrote: post #160
77pt77 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really: http://www.today.com/parents/study-bullies-have-higher-self-... > the study by researchers at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada, also found that bullies had the lowest levels of depression, the highest levels of self-esteem and the highest social status. > The study supports the evolutionary process theory that there is a biological explanation for bullying because bullies gain benefits…

High self-esteem is what I was referring to, in essence. High self-esteem is not equal to sound mental health. Psychopaths have high self-esteem. Not every bully is a psychopath. Unwarranted self-esteem leads to problems in life whether it's high or low.

The comment I was responding to mentioned bullying as a response to "inner pain". If the study I quoted is accurate that is not the case.

I'm not going to dwell into self-esteem and socio/psycopathy labels.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#178

Post by GavinMcG »

bediger4000 wrote: post #151
pitaj wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. SPL is the highest position a boy can have. JASM is just a position for older scouts to transition to a more adult mentor role as they're approaching adulthood.

Senior Patrol Leader, Junior Assistance Scout master, what's the difference, really? If a use a military, rather than a business metaphor, a boy can be a non-commissioned officer at best, not even a lieutenant.

That's exactly the correct analogy, and yes, for Boy Scouts that's true.

Venturing, on the other hand, is entirely youth-led, with the adult playing the role of a coach.

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#179

Post by [deleted] »

bediger4000 wrote: post #151
pitaj wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. SPL is the highest position a boy can have. JASM is just a position for older scouts to transition to a more adult mentor role as they're approaching adulthood.

Senior Patrol Leader, Junior Assistance Scout master, what's the difference, really? If a use a military, rather than a business metaphor, a boy can be a non-commissioned officer at best, not even a lieutenant.

[deleted]

Re: Scouts and guides provide ‘mental health boost for life’

#180

Post by allyjweir »

verbify wrote: post #57
allyjweir wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What country did you have that experience in? I'm an atheist and a Scout leader in the UK. When writing my programme I always include a spiritual component to it but leave it non-religious. We definitely discuss and explore different religions (in past year visited a Mosque, an Abbey and a Synagogue to learn about their cultures) but never focus hard on a religion or even suggest that holding a religious belief is ne…

> I promise that I will do my best Uphold our Scout values Do my duty to the Queen Help other people And to keep the Scout laws Well I'm an atheist and a republican, so that wouldn't work for me.

Luckily they also thought about that! You can replace both the religion and reference to the Queen with:

"To uphold our Scout values, to do my duty to the country in which I am now living"

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