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Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

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Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#171

Post by kpanghmc »

commieneko wrote: post #166
krschultz wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone understands that. What people are pissed off about is the "originally" part. Lets agree that the only acceptable compiler is approved by Apple and that's it. Ok fine. Now what is the material difference between me hand typing code into a source file and building it with the compiler, or me generating the source file with a tool and then it gets compiled? Apple has no way to know that you have done the latter…

No, that's like Sony telling you that you have to use their development garden, which, the last time I looked into console development, they did... I'm pretty sure the agreement says nothing about what kind of keyboard you should use :) But if Apple wanted to specify that in their license, that's entirely within their rights.

You're missing the point. Just because it's legally within Apple's rights to do this, doesn't mean that we have to be happy about it.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#172

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #160
stcredzero wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a step above just saying, "It's our ball, you can't play!" This is waiting until someone goes and buys a bat and only then telling them they can't play.

And that's where you lose me. It sucks to be out $2000 and having the terms changed on you. I hope they get refunds. But keeping Adobe out of the iPhone dev tools market doesn't suck at all. It's a totally rational decision and while it is not the decision I would make, I will in the end probably benefit from it.

I agree with you: the fact that this is happening to Adobe mitigates it somewhat for me, but that doesn't make the maneuver in the abstract any less severe. This is getting to the level of Microsoft telling everyone that the MFC is the way to go, but later on people discover that Microsoft is using something else internally for GUIs.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#173

Post by jasonlotito »

alexandros wrote: post #56

I was always critical of Apple's closed ecosystem but nobody saw this coming. In a sense, they're not even leaving room for doubt that they are not to be trusted. What's worse, essentially developers are now told that they have to put up or shut up, since Apple has the apps market cornered, and their app store full of apps. Developers take heed. Every time you write an application for Steve's app store, it's just one…

" but nobody saw this coming"

No, lots of people did. People dismisses us. Oh, we might not have specified exactly what they were going to do, but essentially it turned out that way.

Remember the Bikini Apps, and everyone who dismissed it and applauded Apples efforts? These people should be applauding yet more restrictions.

Look, Apple has already demonstrated it want's control over everything. This means even the web. Open standards doesn't mean anything. WebKit is their ability to control it. Open standards is nice, but just look at what happened with Flash. The only thing they are doing is using open standards to get to the next step, and then locking it under their own key. This has been going on for a long time. It's not new.

iHTML isnt a joke. I guarantee you Apple wants control over the web. If they could do it right now, Safari on the web would be restricted much more than it already is.

People might still call me alarmist, but so far, I've been proven right, and they've been proven wrong.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#174

Post by stcredzero »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #95
stcredzero wrote: post #8

Summary: If you need to "originally" write your code in Swahili, while listening to Milli Vanilli, while reclining in a patch of mud, and then you need fifty oompa loompas to translate the Swahili into C, that is none of Steve Jobs f#ck^ng business.

And Steve's response, I imagine would be: if you want to sell your app in my store, it's my business. If you don't like my rules, develop for a different platform. Seriously: if Barnes and Noble decides it only wants to sell fiction by authors whose last names begin with "Q", wouldn't we just consider it a bone-headed move, and not the cause for moral outrage? The iPhone is not the only smartphone on the market, and…

It was never intended to be an open platform, but Apple did open up as far as making an SDK and allowing people to code up apps, compile them, then submit them to the App Store. That's like a totalitarian state opening up its harbors and convincing the world's corporations that it's safe to do business.

Now they are making this unilateral change as a tactical move against a rival, seemingly unconcerned about the collateral damage. It's one thing to make a "bone-headed move." It's another to make such a move while hurting other 3rd parties in the process.

Even totalitarian states have an interest in keeping up the semblance of the rule of law. Doing so keeps commerce flowing. Going by this analogy, I guess you have a point: we shouldn't be surprised.

So, does that make Open Source licensing analogous to the rule of law and constitutional government?

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#175

Post by cookiecaper »

allenbrunson wrote: post #101
subbu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2 differences between MS and Apple in this context. MS was very supportive of developers in its ecosystem. And they were never this arrogant.

Unless, of course, you were a developer at Stac Electronics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics ... or one of the many other companies that produced something that Microsoft decided would be better if it was bundled with the OS. I'm not defending Apple here, but come on, be realistic.

Bundling something with the OS isn't wrong. Linux distributions come bundled with tons of software. Is that wrong? There are lots of competing softwares for Linux, usually only one for each purpose is included.

You can still develop and sell a competing application, you'll just get less traction because people already get an application with similar functionality for free.

Apple has killed off a whole class of developer tools with this and stated that if you don't use the software they want, they'll revoke your license.

An equal analogy would be MS revoking the right to sell Windows software for anyone that refused to browse with Internet Explorer.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#176

Post by stcredzero »

warfangle wrote: post #17

While this sucks for iPhone developers who want to branch out / use other languages (clojure, etc), it might persuade these developers to move over to the Android platform. Especially given the several Android tablets forthcoming...

A few years back, I predicted that Apple might get high-handed and inadvertently make OpenMoko/Android more attractive. OpenMoko has gone by the wayside, as perhaps it should have.

Here's an irony: my Windows XP tablet is now where I run my Open Source apps and where I have the freedom to install whatever I want. Newer, slicker Android tablets may take its place.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#177

Post by tptacek »

wvenable wrote: post #53
tptacek wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably it's "as long as you're using the Cocoa Touch stack as your primary development environment, we don't care what other tools you use; however, if you want to use Flash, develop for a different phone."

Yes but this excludes tools, such as MonoTouch, which actually do use the Cocoa Touch stack but allow you to code in C# rather than Objective-C.

Are they wrong about MonoTouch? Probably yes.

They're not going to do everything right.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#178

Post by stcredzero »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #152
DannoHung wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandboxing an application is a bit different than mandating that the code be originally written in a certain way, regardless of what they compile to.

But the mandate only applies if you want to sell the app in their store. Steve's not telling you how to write your code. He's telling you how to write code if you want him to sell it for you to his customers.

True. That would be like Singapore telling us how to build a widget if we want to be able to ship it through their harbors and sell it on their territory.

/me wonders about Squeak on the iPad.

Found it: http://isqueak.org/HomePage Developer signed goodness!

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#179

Post by ams6110 »

MikeTLive wrote: post #77

Is Jobs taking these actions to prevent the commoditization of his platform? I refer the reader back to the Joel Article reposted a few days ago. http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1250958 If apps are portable from iphone to droid the phones step closer to being just another commodity portable device.

I think that's exactly what he's doing.

He wants iPad/iPhone apps to work, to be elegant, and to be consistent.

He wants the Android space to be full of sort-of-works crapware that you find when there are tools that let any half-wit drag-and-drop an app together.

Re: Steve Jobs Has Just Gone Mad

#180

Post by aboodman »

michael_dorfman wrote: post #152
DannoHung wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sandboxing an application is a bit different than mandating that the code be originally written in a certain way, regardless of what they compile to.

But the mandate only applies if you want to sell the app in their store. Steve's not telling you how to write your code. He's telling you how to write code if you want him to sell it for you to his customers.

His customers?

I think application developers are most used to thinking of users as _their_ customers. But you're right, that is clearly not what Steve is thinking.

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