Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#171

Post by aluminussoma » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:17 AM UTC

bloaf wrote: post #87

MIKarlsen wrote: post #37

I find the whole "You are a person who spend every waking hour optimizing yourself to become the best YOU you can be"-frame of mind very intimidating. Maybe it's because I'm not american, but even though I like to work with complex issues, I also like a 9-17 job with a decent income, and the ability to go home and relax when I'm not working. And by relax, I don't mean working on side projects, doing volunteer work or…

I'd recommend the book "Leisure the Basis of Culture" which covers this sentiment in great detail. https://www.amazon.com/Leisure-Basis-Culture-Josef-Pieper/dp...

As I read through this thread, I was thinking of this book, too! Great book that is very relevant to this topic.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#172

Post by debaserab2 » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:19 AM UTC

baby wrote: post #168

debaserab2 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're right but I also can't help but think how the very existence of Dota 2 underscores Valve's lack of innovation in the past half decade or so. They literally took a game built on the back of their biggest competitor and basically recoded it on their own gaming engine (Yes, I know there's plenty of quality of life upgrades they brought to the series, but it was nothing that wasn't too obvious or already i…

So what? They bought Counter strike from Gooseman, they outsourced half life blue shift and opposing force, they bought the team behind team fortress, they bought the team behind left 4 dead, they bought the team behind dota, ... I think everyone that plays dota is actually happy about that.

That comparison isn't completely fair: CS and TF were in their infancy when Valve got involved and Valve took big risks developing those games. Valve taking over DotA after DotA had existed for nearly a decade felt more like them trying to play catch up to LoL in a genre (market) of games that they had nothing in. Agreed, great for DotA players - but it didn't strike me as being a particularly impressive or interesting contribution to gaming.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#173

Post by wavefunction » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 1:50 AM UTC

nice_byte wrote: post #160

kabuto202 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I don't know much about CS:GO, you seem to be incredibly ignorant and/or misled on the state of DotA and TF2.

I don't play TF2 much these days, but from what I've been hearing/reading, a lot of people in the community are dissatisfied with the recent update and yes, some are leaving TF2 to play Overwatch.

Wake me when they divest themselves of their hats.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#174

Post by rdtsc » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:13 AM UTC

Det_Jacobian wrote: post #130

So Valve is definitely idealized by people outside (and inside) the game industry, but definitely much less so by people who have worked there. The flat structure is sort of a pipe dream that leaves nobody actually in charge of important decisions, while hiding a de facto power structure that certainly exists despite being non-explicit. The company has transitioned to being the company that owns Steam as a platform (…

I have worked for a "flat" structure company and that is true. There is alaways a hidden power structure -- and it rewards those who know how to manipulate and scheme. I think some put more effort into that, than actually writting code. Heck, objectively I can't even blame them as it ended up rewarding them more than writting code.

Now I work for a company with a traditional power structure. There is a manager, he has a manager and so on. Things are simpler, less stressful, tasks are more clear. Manager is great a shielding us from the rest of the beaurocracy and letting us do our work.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#175

Post by Strom » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:21 AM UTC

debaserab2 wrote: post #170

robryan wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual innovation in Dota 2 was on the esports side. From setting up the $1 million International before the game was even released spawned an industry of professional players, sponsors, casters, personalities and production companies. The competitive Dota scene before Dota 2 came out was tiny in comparison. Twitch was central to this as well, bigger tournaments meant increased viewers, increased viewers meant th…

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't league of legends more responsible for building the robust esports scene for moba's? It was already there when DotA2 came around, wasn't it?

League's first championship was held in June 2011 with a prize pool of $100,000 [1], and the first Dota 2 International was held in August 2011 with a prize pool of $1,600,000 [2]. Not that big of a time difference, and the difference in prize pools has only increased since then in favor of Dota 2.

Twitch was in baby shoes back in 2011 as well. Game streaming overall was still really small, and sites like own3d.tv held a large market share back then.

In addition, Valve built in-engine spectating into the game since day 1. You can watch other games live, or download replays and jump to any moment in time. League doesn't have similar tech even in 2016 [3], they are definitely far more focused on their casual players. League does have an extremely large playerbase in total, so their esports achievements are still remarkable due to sheer scale, but it's much more of a side-part of League than Dota.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Legends_World_Champi...

[2] http://wiki.teamliquid.net/dota2/The_International/2011

[3] From what I understand there is no replay system at all, and the League spectator mode is very basic and lacks most of the features that Dota 2 has.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#176

Post by Det_Jacobian » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:39 AM UTC

mmanfrin wrote: post #136

Det_Jacobian wrote: post #130

So Valve is definitely idealized by people outside (and inside) the game industry, but definitely much less so by people who have worked there. The flat structure is sort of a pipe dream that leaves nobody actually in charge of important decisions, while hiding a de facto power structure that certainly exists despite being non-explicit. The company has transitioned to being the company that owns Steam as a platform (…

Eventually the market will figure out that they don't need to pay Steam 30% of sales to host files on a server That's overly negative and pretty disingenuous. App developers for Android can sell their APKs directly and save 30%, but they don't because of the convenience of the market. Similarly, I rarely buy games outside of Steam (or GOG) except in the cases of very indie developers who provide a steam key when I bu…

Yeah you're right, Steam does offer a lot more than just file hosting. They also do DRM, friends lists, games promotions, and modding marketplaces, although each of these things certainly also have cheaper/decentralized solutions.

The 30% number is one that they might start to get pressure on with competition. GOG now pulls something like 10% of steam sales on the games they curate (citation needed) and I believe they are working on a stronger community/online platform.

There are also more indie upstarts like http://itch.io, which are smaller but focus on developer outreach and close-knit community.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#177

Post by Strom » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 2:43 AM UTC

cloakandswagger wrote: post #153

teen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not much else steam vr? dota 2? csgo? virtual economies? source 2? the steam workshop? the crowdfunded compendiums?

Dota 2 and CS:GO are the only titles Valve has put out in some time, and I'd argue they're not the best examples. Valve has been throwing money and man-hours at Dota 2 relentlessly, but the game's playerbase is still tiny compared to LoL. I imagine they have only a couple more years to try to figure this out before the gaming zeitgeist moves away from traditional MOBAs completely. CS:GO has been in an alternating sta…

Dota is over 13 years old by now and still growing. It may have less players than League, but it's by far the most popular game on Steam. I've played it for over 10 years myself, and I have a very long friendlist of similar people. Dota is a lifestyle, it's more addictive than any other game and people keep coming back to it even against their own wishes. Valve has been drip feeding people with Dota updates since its launch and I don't expect it to stop anytime soon. Claiming that dota will die in a couple of years should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#178

Post by passthefist » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 3:20 AM UTC

Strom wrote: post #175

debaserab2 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't league of legends more responsible for building the robust esports scene for moba's? It was already there when DotA2 came around, wasn't it?

League's first championship was held in June 2011 with a prize pool of $100,000 [1], and the first Dota 2 International was held in August 2011 with a prize pool of $1,600,000 [2]. Not that big of a time difference, and the difference in prize pools has only increased since then in favor of Dota 2. Twitch was in baby shoes back in 2011 as well. Game streaming overall was still really small, and sites like own3d.tv he…

Per point #3, it's even gotten as far as becoming a meme in the League community. It's one of the most talked about missing features other than a sandbox mode, which Dota also has.

Any time a new feature is released, especially smaller ones, there's usually a good number of 'We got this but no mode' comments.

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#179

Post by ctrlalt_g » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 3:56 AM UTC

chucksmash wrote: post #60

whatever_dude wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right - it's very much an American thing. Maybe not exclusive to the US, and it may vary by state or background, but still very common there from my experience with family and friends. In American culture, unless you're financially constrained, you grow up with someone hammering down the idea that you have to be doing something productive and getting better 100% of the time. If you're a kid, you have to be inv…

I think you're overgeneralizing a bit when you say it's an American thing. Maybe you and your peer group were out in the hard-charging long tail of the distribution and you assume life looked the same everywhere else? As someone who dropped down from honors courses sophomore year of high school to "college prep" and earned a thoroughly mediocre GPA in an easy major at a state school, I'll just say that there are alll…

yeah but mainstream culture is always defined by a small group. and it is recognizably American. like having a million of those ribbons and plastic trophies from science fairs or organized sports. or republicans calling poor people "freeloaders".

Re: Valve – Handbook for New Employees (2012) [pdf]

#180

Post by sciguy77 » Tue, Jul 26, 2016, 4:29 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #174

Det_Jacobian wrote: post #130

So Valve is definitely idealized by people outside (and inside) the game industry, but definitely much less so by people who have worked there. The flat structure is sort of a pipe dream that leaves nobody actually in charge of important decisions, while hiding a de facto power structure that certainly exists despite being non-explicit. The company has transitioned to being the company that owns Steam as a platform (…

I have worked for a "flat" structure company and that is true. There is alaways a hidden power structure -- and it rewards those who know how to manipulate and scheme. I think some put more effort into that, than actually writting code. Heck, objectively I can't even blame them as it ended up rewarding them more than writting code. Now I work for a company with a traditional power structure. There is a manager, he ha…

Can you please elaborate as to what causes that hidden power structure (i.e. what goes wrong)? In your opinion, is the idea of flat management inherently flawed or is it just hard to execute? Curious to hear your thoughts as someone who's actually tried it.