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Why most people don't like jazz

dyske.com

171–180 of 235 posts

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#171
On of my favorite essays on music is by an art critic/dealer named Dave Hickey. He wrote a collection of essays called Air Guitar, which is worth picking up even if (like me) you're not interested in art dealing or art criticism. He's a very lucid writer about the value of art for life.

Anyway, in the chapter "The Delicacy of Rock-and-Roll" he ends with thoughts on what he considers to be the two most fundamentally American musical forms: jazz and rock-n-roll. Here's the quote:

"Jazz presumes that it would be nice if the four of us--simpatico dudes that we are--while playing this complicated song together, might somehow be free and autonomous as well. Tragically, this never quite works out. At best, we can only be free one or two at a time--while the other dudes hold onto the wire. Which is not to say that no one has tried to dispense with wires. Many have, and sometimes it works--but it doesn't feel like jazz when it does. The music simply drifts away into the stratosphere of formal dialectic, beyond our social concerns.

Rock-and-roll, on the other hand, presumes that the four of us--as damaged and anti-social as we are--might possibly get it to-fucking-gether, man, and play this simple song. And play it right, okay? Just this once, in tune and on the beat. But we can't. The song's too simple, and we're too complicated and too excited. We try like hell, but the guitars distort, the intonation bends, and the beat just moves, imperceptibly, against our formal expectations, whether we want it to or not. Just because we're breathing, man. Thus, in the process of trying to play this very simple song together, we create this hurricane of noise, this infinitely complicated, fractal filigree of delicate distinctions.

And you can thank the wanking eighties, if you wish, and digital sequencers, too, for proving to everyone that technologically "perfect" rock--like "free" jazz--sucks rockets. Because order sucks. I mean, look at the Stones. Keith Richards is always on top of the beat, and Bill Wyman, until he quit, was always behind it, because Richards is leading the band and Charlie Watts is listening to him and Wyman is listening to Watts. So the beat is sliding on those tiny neural lapses, not so you can tell, of course, but so you can feel it in your stomach. And the intonation is wavering, too, with the pulse in the finger on the amplified string. This is the delicacy of rock-and-roll, the bodily rhetoric of tiny increments, necessary imperfections, and contingent community. And it has its virtues, because jazz only works if we're trying to be free and are, in fact, together. Rock-and-roll works because we're all a bunch of flakes. That's something you can depend on, and a good thing too, because in the twentieth century, that's all there is: jazz and rock-and-roll. The rest is term papers and advertising."

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#172
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, to summarize in an only very slightly trollish way: - The problem with jazz is the people who listen to it. - Music isn't art, or at least it's wrong to appreciate it as such. - Jazz ought to be revivalist, not innovative. Suffice to say, I don't think I can agree...

- The problem with jazz is the people who listen to it. Yes - Music isn't art, or at least it's wrong to appreciate it as such. Music is entertainment and emotions. - Jazz ought to be revivalist, not innovative. Things like free-jazz is not innovative. It is shitty musicians thinking that if they play "out" enough, they might get to the point that people feel they are geniuses. Music is meant to be good to the ears.

"Things like free-jazz is not innovative. It is shitty musicians thinking that if they play "out" enough, they might get to the point that people feel they are geniuses."

Coltrane played 'out' a lot, he surly wasn't a shitty musician. Cecil Taylor has more technique on the piano than most anyone. Sam Rivers harmonically is out of this world. Ornette Coleman's sense of time? Hamid Drake on drums? Pharoah Sanders? Don Cherry? Marion Brown? Eric Dolphy? Anthony Braxton?

Just because you don't like how it sounds doesn't mean these are talentless fools -- they've studied their history. They surely think about their art complexly and take it extremely seriously.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#173

The state of music commentary on this thread is low enough to be insulting and pretty much validates the article. I find it humorous that a website that draws people dedicated to abstract thought can have such a mediocre understanding of music and music history. Do yourself a favor, find a piece of music that you think you don't like. Sit down and listen to it 50 times without distraction so that you know all the cha…

Well, I find it insulting when somebody comes and tells people how they should enjoy their music.

I think your comment pretty much validates my image about the people who think they are better in listening to music than others. What has abstract thought to do with music history anyway? I am a software designer, and I truely appreciate useful abstractions that make creating good software a bit easier. But for music, I don't give a damn about the intentions of the composer or the history of the musical style of the composition, if I don't like it or the way how it is performed. Just like the users of my software don't care the slightest bit of how well-crafted the thing is, if it doesn't do what they want. I rather sit down to listen through the music I like 50 times to learn all its twists and turns than to waste my time on something I genuinely couldn't care less.

And how do I tell the music I like from the music I don't? The music I truely like gives me shivers, physically, the first time I hear it. That is the music that gives me joy when I listen to it. That is the experience I hope to get from music every now and then. And that really does not happen too often.

I play guitar as a hobby, and mostly suck at it. That's because I don't have the drive to really study hard and learn it properly. (And probably I don't have that much talent, either.) I would have all the time if I wanted, but I don't, because I want to enjoy playing music - not to have it as yet another burden to bear. So I go and learn new stuff only when I feel I need some new kick to maintain the interest in it.

And this is what I want to say: go and learn, but above all, find enjoyment. Life is short, and everything has its price - so don't waste your (free) time on anything you don't find personally rewarding. Studying music is waste of time - unless you happen to enjoy studying music! ;)

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#175
"The self-surrender of classical music to a sterile, scholastic avant-garde after World War I doomed WFLN to the status of a fading museum of antiquities before that radio station was even born. The hankering of dance-band leaders to be seen as high artists after World War II sapped jazz of its vitality. Both genres have been steadily losing market share for decades because they deliberately turned their backs on the mass audiences they formerly commanded."

http://catb.org/~esr/writings/arts.html

Personal note: I've been to jazz concerts where the musicians were in it to have fun, not to make a statement or prove their avant-garde-ness. This included a real exciting swing performance with dancers at an airshow. When played as such the music is invigorating like nothing else.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#176
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Music is entertainment and emotions. If that's the case, then I'd say that in WWF vs music, WWF wins every time! I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you think all post-renaissance painting is shit, too.

Visual art is distinctly different from music. It's possible to be entertained and feel emotion for visual art that is not a photorealistic depiction. Music, meanwhile, has certain rules that need to be obeyed in order for people to want to experience it. I'm sorry, John Cage might have some interesting concepts, but it's completely unlistenable. There are just some things that you cannot develop a real taste for. Th…

Experimental chefs can start fooling around with liquid nitrogen and re-purposed inkjet printers and meet with wild success, however. ;)

A more substantive reply: I question the entire underlying premise you have -- that entertainment or emotion are what makes art, art. Something can be entirely distasteful and still art. (Thought experiment: imagine a sonata so deeply heartbreaking that nobody can bear to listen to it more than once. One can't "develop a taste" for it, can they? But it's almost certainly art by most definitions.)

In any case, I don't think John Cage is having any trouble finding listeners, despite your opinion: http://www.johncage.info/index6.html

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#178
Jazz can be hilariously inaccessible. I think one of the problems is much of it is 'standard based' (ie. they're improvising around the chords and melodies of classic old songs like Autumn Leaves, All of Me) but they take HELLA liberties (i once heard a Dinah Washington rendition of All of Me and could swear she didn't know what the song actually was). Once you know the standards, and the majority of them really are gems in their own right, you start to realize what the jazzmen are really DOING, what patterns they're playing with. Then you can follow and appreciate long improvisatory solos better. But if you're just hearing some 60 year old song that you don't even KNOW, and they assume that you already know it SO WELL that they barely need to play the original melody, and they're ramping up the complexity 5x to challenge themselves, then it's tough going.

Something that's helped me a lot recently is typing standards into Spotify and just listening to different versions of the same song (not always jazz artists) for hours. I used to think 'why can't all standards be as enjoyable as Summertime?' but now they kinda are

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#179
post #152
post #30

There's a difference between being able to appreciate the artistic value of something, and being able to enjoy it. I don't like jazz, and I mostly listen to music where I can't understand the lyrics, or where none exist. Sometimes people just don't enjoy certain genres of music. I'm sure part of it is cultural, but this article seems to portray the inability to enjoy jazz as some sort of cultural failing, and that's…

Jazz as a genre is more complex than virtually any other genre of music. It employs more subtle and more complex harmonies which are usually not used anywhere else, neither are seen in music textbooks. Plus improvisation which essentially is composing on the fly - something not every musician is capable of keeping up and not every listener is capable of understanding. In other words (and this shouldn't be news) jazz…

I enjoy classical music of the modern period like Messiaen, Britten, and others. This is arguably more complicated than jazz.

I don't really like most jazz. The performers are mostly amazing players, but the music doesn't provoke any emotional reaction from me, whereas listening to something like Messiaen's Turangalila is as close to a religious experience as I'll ever get.

Re: Why most people don't like jazz

#180
post #27

I'm a musician myself who used to play jazz. The problem with jazz is that is considered by the people who listen to it like "pure art" when it is just a style of music. Jazz (and classical) is elevated higher than other form of music and music teachers will expect a good musician to play jazz. If jazz lovers would stop thinking at themselves as "higher educated" and jazz would go back to the people who want enjoy a…

I'm a musician, and I completely relate to the author regarding not listening to lyrics, etc. The thing is, I strongly dislike jazz. I can recognize creativity and virtuosity in jazz musicians, but the songwriting and soloing actually seems lazy to me (the opposite of what jazz proponents would probably say).
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