A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR • Hacker News Board

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#171

Post by arcanus » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:36 PM UTC

hinkley wrote: post #148

intrasight wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As was the case with early personal computers - until some "killer apps" arrived. For businesses, the killer app was Lotus 1-2-3 and/or WordPerfect. Rest assured that some clever young things are actively working on the killer apps for VR headsets. I assume there will be at least one, and I assume that it won't be a FPS game.

No. You're seeing a low adoption rate and imagining that it's just the typical adoption cycle taught in Business 101. VR has been the next big thing for twenty years. It's not a niche technology because of Luddites, it is a niche technology because it works against human physiology and only a lucky few are totally unaffected by it. You're targeting an audience of people who find your product merely tolerable. And sin…

> it is a niche technology because it works against human physiology

I'm not sure I agree. Many complained of motion sickness playing early FPS games, such as DooM or Descent. I wouldn't be surprised if it just takes an equilibration period to get used to the devices. Either way, unless there is actual research that shows a large portion of the population actually has difficulty adapting to the device, I don't believe the tech is fundamentallying flawed.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#172

Post by teslaberry » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:39 PM UTC

VR is so yesterday. the vr of tomorrow is the matrix.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#173

Post by partiallypro » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #97

partiallypro wrote: post #94

In all of my experiencing of the new VR products, I am firmly in the position that it's not ready for public consumption yet and won't be for quite some time. The only real reason it's being pushed hard is because people have a fear of missing out. Meanwhile, if I were a company I'd be focusing on AR, because at least there you can push for enterprise customers which won't need the full immersion yet that a general c…

I think it's clearly not ready for anything like the adoption levels of consoles, but people who own VR products definitely use them. It's too expensive, too low resolution, and too clunky to conquer the world yet, but it's an excellent first generation. What you're describing sounds more like AR to me. Everyone I know who bought Google Glass showed it off to their friends and then never used it again. I know AR has…

I wouldn't consider Google Glass to be real "AR", but just a small HUD, it doesn't really map your environment. I'd consider Hololens true AR, it too has a long way to go, but as I said businesses can fill the void between now and then...with VR, what use does it have in business? I would argue very little to none.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#174

Post by pekk » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:44 PM UTC

forthefuture wrote: post #157

marricks wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird your comment is so far up and you haven't given any reasons as to why VR is not ready for mainstream. You have a reason for why it's being pushed, but not a reason for why it won't take. Steam sale numbers show tens of thousands of games are being bought by Vive owners, which is a pretty high percentage of the ~90k Vive units out there. Some games are as high as 50k / ~90k units. People are continuing to b…

I personally think it's not ready for the following reasons: * Many people are getting sick. They don't even know why it's happening; we're years away from it being fixed. VR right now is the 3d on the 3ds. It's not meant for human eyes and they're rushing it. * No eyetracking. Your camera focuses on the direction your head is pointed. This is not how humans see. I am virtually never looking the exact direction my he…

Many people get sick with conventional 3d games, but it hasn't done much to the market's enthusiasm.

Your post convinced me that VR is getting big in the near future. Why? Because your complaints are so closely similar to the complaints about consumer 3d acceleration boards when they were new.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#175

Post by Analemma_ » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:50 PM UTC

sergiosgc wrote: post #168

forthefuture wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally think it's not ready for the following reasons: * Many people are getting sick. They don't even know why it's happening; we're years away from it being fixed. VR right now is the 3d on the 3ds. It's not meant for human eyes and they're rushing it. * No eyetracking. Your camera focuses on the direction your head is pointed. This is not how humans see. I am virtually never looking the exact direction my he…

>Many people are getting sick. Source? It runs contrary to my experience, and my sample is large enough to be data, not anecdata. > Eyetracking Not needed for gaming. From your text it looks like you're thinking in terms of virtual desktop, which is not the target. > Games Too early to tell. There are already a few very good titles and a promising pipeline anyhow. The outlook is positive, not negative. > Price/versio…

>> Many people are getting sick.

> Source? It runs contrary to my experience, and my sample is large enough to be data, not anecdata.

Here's at least one source: https://twitter.com/JamesStevenson/status/743896444650692608 (more if you count the replies agreeing with him). I picked him because he's a somewhat notable individual in the games industry, but I saw many anecdotes from other E3 attendees agreeing with him.

It seems that while the first few people/companies with major skin in the game (Valve, Oculus) are being very careful with VR best practices, a lot of companies just looking to get into the gold rush are not.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#176

Post by marricks » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

Analemma_ wrote: post #175

sergiosgc wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Many people are getting sick. Source? It runs contrary to my experience, and my sample is large enough to be data, not anecdata. > Eyetracking Not needed for gaming. From your text it looks like you're thinking in terms of virtual desktop, which is not the target. > Games Too early to tell. There are already a few very good titles and a promising pipeline anyhow. The outlook is positive, not negative. > Price/versio…

>> Many people are getting sick. > Source? It runs contrary to my experience, and my sample is large enough to be data, not anecdata. Here's at least one source: https://twitter.com/JamesStevenson/status/743896444650692608 (more if you count the replies agreeing with him). I picked him because he's a somewhat notable individual in the games industry, but I saw many anecdotes from other E3 attendees agreeing with him.…

Wait, that is someone saying devs were ignoring best practices. Of course people get sick if their eyes say they're flying around and their body says they're sitting still.

That's the game devs fault, not the hardware or system.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#177

Post by pekk » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 5:57 PM UTC

arcanus wrote: post #171

hinkley wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You're seeing a low adoption rate and imagining that it's just the typical adoption cycle taught in Business 101. VR has been the next big thing for twenty years. It's not a niche technology because of Luddites, it is a niche technology because it works against human physiology and only a lucky few are totally unaffected by it. You're targeting an audience of people who find your product merely tolerable. And sin…

> it is a niche technology because it works against human physiology I'm not sure I agree. Many complained of motion sickness playing early FPS games, such as DooM or Descent. I wouldn't be surprised if it just takes an equilibration period to get used to the devices. Either way, unless there is actual research that shows a large portion of the population actually has difficulty adapting to the device, I don't believ…

There are plenty of people who just can't play first-person 3d games without puking. They didn't get used to it, they just avoid those games and the market doesn't care. Even games which could be modified to prevent motion sickness typically aren't.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#178

Post by burkaman » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

flatline wrote: post #162

burkaman wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have some source for this insurmountable eye focusing problem? Even just an anecdotal one? I've never experienced it, none of my friends have, and the worst I've heard about online is motion sickness issues from certain types of games.

They are plentiful - for one example, see the article and comments here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11795913

That Quora post would be very convincing if I didn't own a VR device, but I don't know how to reconcile it with my own experience. Either I and all my friends (and a few thousand people online) are superhuman, or there are some important technical difference that the author is missing.

Thanks for the link though, that's a perspective I hadn't heard before.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#179

Post by fnazeeri » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:00 PM UTC

I have been using an Oculus Rift for a few weeks and the experience is breathtaking. For example, there is an Apollo 11 educational game where you get to experience the mission from the point of view of Neil Armstrong or Michael Collins. I think it is hard to argue that "experiencing" history isn't far superior than reading about it. And the pure games like EVE Valkrie give you a cold sweat they are so immersive. Just my The cost right now are high, but no more than an iPhone. I think mainstream isn't too far away. My $0.02 at least.

Re: A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR

#180

Post by burkaman » Tue, Jun 21, 2016, 6:08 PM UTC

partiallypro wrote: post #173

burkaman wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's clearly not ready for anything like the adoption levels of consoles, but people who own VR products definitely use them. It's too expensive, too low resolution, and too clunky to conquer the world yet, but it's an excellent first generation. What you're describing sounds more like AR to me. Everyone I know who bought Google Glass showed it off to their friends and then never used it again. I know AR has…

I wouldn't consider Google Glass to be real "AR", but just a small HUD, it doesn't really map your environment. I'd consider Hololens true AR, it too has a long way to go, but as I said businesses can fill the void between now and then...with VR, what use does it have in business? I would argue very little to none.

I don't know how successful VR will be in business, but I think that's sort of tangential to this discussion. I am convinced it will be very successful as an entertainment product. Some companies have been experimenting with VR apartment tours, room planning, architecture demos, etc. Not sure how successful those will be.

I agree that Hololens is closer to "true" AR. That's why I said VR is more ready for public consumption, because you can go out and by a Vive right now, and it works great. Hololens isn't out and might not be out for a while, and it's not clear how well it actually works right now.