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Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

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Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#171

Post by sotojuan »

paloaltokid wrote: post #149
guessmyname wrote: post #12

This blog post reads to me like the Pokemon motto "Gotta Catch 'Em All". Being non-american (I'm from a South American country) it is hard for me to understand the importance giving to these things associated to racism and sexism. The United States is the only place I have seen where people invest a considerable amount of time and resources just to put people from minor groups or specific genders in pedestals just to…

> You will (probably) never see such thing in Latin American because no one cares why color your skin is or what gender you identify with in order to get a specific job. Are you aware that Brazil, the largest South American country, imported more slaves than anyone else? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Brazil I find it extremely hard to believe that racism does not exist in Latin or South America.

I am originally from Peru and yeah, people over there are very racist against the mountain/native people so much that people try to get away from their native heritage very often. A white skinned person with a European name and/or complexion has way more opportunities and an easier life.

That said, GP may not feel this way because racism in those countries (well, mine at least) is not called out often like it's in the US, so it doesn't feel like it's a problem because no one gets in trouble or protests it.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#172

Post by adnzzzzZ »

mmel wrote: post #159
balls187 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having non-economic privileges I can't stand referring to my comment as "white privilege." It's just another way to discount a person simply because of their race. Being white is like starting a race at the starting line. Being black can be like starting that same race 10 feet back. Starting at the starting line, isn't a privilege--it's just how a race should be, in order to be fair for everyone participating. What…

Saying that someone is suffering from "black hinderance" sounds even more terrible.

Maybe it sounds more terrible but it accurately describes the problem. You shouldn't be guilt tripping white people, you should be encouraging black people to perform better. "White privilege" falls into a mentality that I call victimization, where instead of people looking at things through the lens of "how can I change myself and be better", they look at it through the lens of "how can others change themselves to help me be better". You need both mentalities for things to work out but there's a heavy focus on the second one, because it's a lot easier and more convenient.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#173

Post by [deleted] »

drhayes9 wrote: post #68
johnnyg wrote: post #56

"There are no Black/African-American GitHubbers in management positions, which is unacceptable." It is only unacceptable if people with the skills to be in management positions didn't get a promotion because of a non-relevant personal attribute. Otherwise, it is acceptable and in the best long term interests of the company. I acknowledge that America has equality of opportunity problems. There are strong and just his…

I think GH is starting from the point of "the distribution of our employees doesn't line up with the larger population of the country we operate in". If you think each of those groups of people has the potential to be as talented as any other, then why is there a discrepancy? I think they're saying, "We don't think the market is working." There are hidden biases at work. For example, people with "non-white sounding"…

[deleted]

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#174

Post by sotojuan »

MustardTiger wrote: post #107
jbob2000 wrote: post #10

I wish so much that I could be picky about my hiring like GitHub. I wish I could have so many qualified candidates applying that I am able to create a diverse team. But I put out job ads and get like 2 qualified responses. How the hell are they able to find all these candidates such that they can start being picky about who they hire??? Maybe Toronto just sucks for tech talent... Argh...

>But I put out job ads and get like 2 qualified responses. And 200 completely unqualified ones. It is crazy how many people apply for jobs they have absolutely no qualifications for.

Anyone can apply to a programming job—it's not like you need formal education like lawyers or doctors.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#175

Post by pessimizer »

yarper wrote: post #136
danudey wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe doesn't have the sort of ingrained racism that exists in the United States. For example: > Despite similar rates of drug use, black people are nearly four times as likely to be arrested for marijuana use,⁴ and black males are often given longer sentences for crimes than their white peers.⁵ [ from https://medium.com/@dan_nott/what-is-mass-incarceration-ff73... ] Likewise, women tend to make significantly less m…

> Likewise, women tend to make significantly less money for doing the same work, in the same positions, at the same company, because of (largely) subconscious biases. I see this everywhere, and yet no citations (and when asked, I usually get referred to someones blog - not from a respected scientist completely unaffiliated with the feminist movement). Either that or I get linked to 4 or 5 default papers which have li…

I'm going to tell you to check your privilege, which is a codified way of telling you that if you were really concerned about whether there was a gender pay gap, you'd look for the research yourself instead of waiting for somebody to hand it to you. If you were either familiar with the existing research and saw flaws in it, or were familiar with better evidence that contradicted the accepted wisdom, your statements about the burden of proof would be a lot more interesting and sound a lot less like whining.

It's not the world's duty to convince you of anything. I'm not even going to refer you to a blog - go to scholar.google.com and search for "gender pay gap." Follow the citations. You should also do that if you're not sure if racism exists, or if other planets exist. Then instead of trying to one-up people on message boards when they won't do your research for you, you can lead in whatever direction your research takes you.

Also, nobody knows you're a white male on the internet until you broadcast it.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#176

Post by alva »

I expect this is a well intentioned mission. But to what extent do you take this? Does not making sure other (less in the zeitgeist) groups are involved mean they are failing at this?

Hasidic Jews, Inuits, Wheelchair users, Men named Reginald, A person with a southern drawl, a person with one hand, a person with no hands, a 45 year old.

Quick googling suggests Jews make up 1.4% of the US population. You can't really pull out the privilege card on them before anyone tries it. This is far higher than the estimates of transexual people. Are GitHub anti-semitic? Why do they hate Jews so much that they refuse to include them in diversity reports? Do they not care for their struggle? Why is it important to stress the number of transexual people they hire over the number of Jews they hire?

It is a race to the bottom.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#177

Post by jmcgough »

adnzzzzZ wrote: post #172
mmel wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying that someone is suffering from "black hinderance" sounds even more terrible.

Maybe it sounds more terrible but it accurately describes the problem. You shouldn't be guilt tripping white people, you should be encouraging black people to perform better. "White privilege" falls into a mentality that I call victimization, where instead of people looking at things through the lens of "how can I change myself and be better", they look at it through the lens of "how can others change themselves to h…

> You shouldn't be guilt tripping white people, you should be encouraging black people to perform better.

White people are the ones in power in this country. You can't just expect people to pick themselves up by their bootstraps, because it'll never happen unless the people in power put in effort to change the status quo, which is exactly what some tech companies are trying to do.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#178

Post by 1_2__3 »

geofft wrote: post #57
antimatter wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. These types of reports make it seem like Github cares only about skin color which to me is racist.

This viewpoint genuinely baffles me. You can only manage what you measure, and the process of monitoring a metric isn't the same thing as caring about the metric. I monitor free disk space on all my servers, but it doesn't mean I care primarily about buying more disks. In fact I don't care because I've monitored it and have determined we're okay there. However, as a result of data , if my servers were regularly runni…

The argument is that making decisions based on race is racism. Github isn't "monitoring" things, they're actively trying to change them, and using race (and other such factors that some people believe we should try to be blind to, or at least agnostic about) as a factor.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#179

Post by wpietri »

braythwayt wrote: post #166
cb18 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Institutional racism,"(has it undergone re-branding as "institutionalized discrimination"?) is this vague, boogey-man term used as an explanation of last resort to explain the "achievement gap," among other divergences between the races. The thing is, there is tenuous evidence at best for "institutional racism," and in nowhere near the quantity that would be needed to account for all of its supposed effects. Indeed…

"Institutional racism,” also “Systemic racism,” is not a vague, bogeyman term, it has a specific and objective meaning. It can be measured and has been measured, repeatedly. In almost every area of American life, there are measurable effects. Blacks are more likely to be arrested than whites for the same crimes. They are more likely to be sent to prison and to get longer prison sentences given the same criminal recor…

> What I am finding more and more is a certain type of rhetoric, I will call it “Racism Denial.”

That's an excellent name for it. What I find especially frustrating about it is how it's dressed up in a search for objective truth. However, the only kind of evidence they want is the kind that proves racism. They never appear to search for evidence for the opposite proposition, that racism does not exist. That's always their given, their ground, their unquestioned assumption.

In the broader historical context, that's ridiculous. The US's history is enormously racist. We fought an entire civil war over whether black people were actually people. The racism denialists are in effect claiming that on some unspecified date in history, all of that racism evaporated and left no trace in heart, mind, or law. That's the proposition I think we should be demanding evidence for.

Re: Diversity and Inclusion at GitHub

#180

Post by ASpring »

ps4fanboy wrote: post #155
ASpring wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And it does. More diverse companies perform better financially. https://www.ncwit.org/sites/default/files/resources/impactge...

After reading the sources I would say there is evidence that employees in the survey they conducted self reported better financial performance from the following options: "how would you compare your organization’s performance over the past two years in terms of market share? .|.|. Would you say that it was (1) much worse, (2) somewhat worse, (3) about the same, (4) somewhat better, or (5) much better?” Surely we can…

You are truly grasping at straws. There are 15 citations there, many of which show direct data of market cap and share price performance for these companies and you hunt down a single survey you have an issue with. Please.
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