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CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

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171–180 of 189 posts

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#171
post #155

So let's say I have a file PayYourSalary.scala, and somewhere in that file there is a method: def payEmployeeForOneDay(rate: Int, minutesWorked: Int = 8) = { // other stuff here } As you can see, there is a bug here. This method used to have a parameter hoursWorked with a default of 8 (a reasonable default!). But then it was changed to minutes and someone forgot to update the default. Because of this, some people end…

Your sample code is an interesting case because the nature of declarations in Scala (among other languages) is distinct from the nature of declarations in pure Java.

Setting a default value for an argument is an assignment, a real action that is taken by the code at runtime. The Java equivalent would be in two (or three, depending on how you count) parts, something like:

    // Do the things.
    // If minutesWorked is left at -1, this procedure will use the default value of 480.
    void payEmployeeForOneDay(int rate, int minutesWorked) { // inert declaration
        if (minutesWorked == -1) { minutesWorked = 8; }      // active code with bug
        // ...
    }
Here we have a human readable specification of behavior, which has zero impact on the compiler or generated code, a machine readable description of an interface for other bits of software to interact with this bit of software, and some working code that will make something happen.

This is interesting because the specification being described and implemented is not fully encapsulated by the function declaration/API, but also by the "non-code" english comment attached to it.

Is it fair use for me to copy this API by using the same function declaration but rewording the documentation, but writing my own implementation of the function body to correctly match the comment? What if I implemented a bug-compatible version of the body from scratch, and rewrote the comment to match?

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#172

One basic travesty not covered in these comments is that a jury of people who have zero clue what software is or how they work are being asked to judge an entire industry on a topic they can't possibly understand. Sadly in civil cases the concept of a jury of your peers is not a right. In reality a jury of software engineers and the like would make more sense since they at least understand how software is put togethe…

[deleted]

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#174

One basic travesty not covered in these comments is that a jury of people who have zero clue what software is or how they work are being asked to judge an entire industry on a topic they can't possibly understand. Sadly in civil cases the concept of a jury of your peers is not a right. In reality a jury of software engineers and the like would make more sense since they at least understand how software is put togethe…

> One basic travesty not covered in these comments is that a jury of people who have zero clue what software is or how they work are being asked to judge an entire industry on a topic they can't possibly understand.

No, they aren't being asked to "judge an entire industry on a topic they can't possibly understand". They are being asked to answer fairly narrow questions of fact about specific actions of specific firms.

> Sadly in civil cases the concept of a jury of your peers is not a right. In reality a jury of software engineers and the like would make more sense since they at least understand how software is put together.

To the extent that a "jury of your peers" is a right anywhere in the US (the phrase isn't directly used in the Constitution at all, though the right to trial by jury is held to extend to it), it is, in fact, a right in most federal civil lawsuits with more than a trivial amount at stake. But the concept of a "jury of your peers" never meant people of like specific profession, it originally (in the Magna Carta) meant specifically rather than arbitrary justice of the king, nobles had the right to be tried by fellow nobles, and came to extend to the idea that other defendants have the right to be tried by a jury of the general citizenry. Which is the case with modern jury trials in the US today.

> But that won't ever happen in our system because of the complexity of defining a peer in what might be an arcane specialty (not software but other things).

No, it'll never happen today because that's never what a jury of peers meant in the first place, not because the concept is difficult to extend to arcane specialties.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#175
post #164

Here's an question that should pair up pretty well to the API copyright-ability question. Is the list of words and their order in a dictionary copyrightable?

Yes.

I can see the definitions being copyrightable yes, but I don't see how an alphabetically arranged list of words (just the list) would classify as copyrightable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_in_lists#A...

Hence the question ..

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#176
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Into this went their irrational fear of GPL (describing it as 'viral' or 'infectious'). Why irrational? If they used the GPL, a lot more of Android would need to be open source today, yes? Including proprietary hardware things that can't be open sourced?

OpenJDK was not pure GPL but rather GPL+classpath exception.

Ah, I see, my bad

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android's success was that its foundations was something the community knew. Java was either #1 or #2 of most popular language and their was a vast mind share that could be utilized. A new language for a new mobile platform would have been disastrous. Could you imagine someone saying her is our phone everyone learn it and make great apps for launch in 6 months?

You mean, like Objective-C was disastrous for the iPhone?

Objective-C 1983 creation date :)

Came with Steve Jobs from NeXT and was used in OS X way before 2007 iPhone debut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective-C

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#178
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course declaring code is code. The clue is in the name, "declaring CODE". This doesn't follow, sometimes language does unexpected things. E.g. a dwarf planet isn't a planet.

Of course code declarations are "code" the same way a library listing of book titles is made up of "words". Unique, creative words that cannot be explained by chance or well known to the audience before their creation by the author. Yet, none should be protected by copyright, this is the intention of "is not code".

I think a better analogy would be the table of contents for a novel.

Function headers are no more code than a table of contents entry is a story.

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Android's success was that its foundations was something the community knew. Java was either #1 or #2 of most popular language and their was a vast mind share that could be utilized. A new language for a new mobile platform would have been disastrous. Could you imagine someone saying her is our phone everyone learn it and make great apps for launch in 6 months?

You mean, like Objective-C was disastrous for the iPhone?

[deleted]

Re: CEO Larry Page defends Google on the stand: “Declaring code is not code”

#180
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes.

I can see the definitions being copyrightable yes, but I don't see how an alphabetically arranged list of words (just the list) would classify as copyrightable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Copyright_in_lists#A... Hence the question ..

Hasbro has (somewhat) successfully argued that the list of Scrabble words is copyrightable.
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