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A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

thetimes.co.uk

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Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#171

Post by seanmcdirmid »

blfr wrote: post #158
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal. All of its implementations, however, have been seriously lacking, and perhaps it is unviable in practice; this does not mean the concept is unacceptable in theory.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal. There clearly is. Everywhere it has been tried, it led to at least poverty and usually genocide. Communism has been far, far worse than nazism or fascism and holding national socialism as some sort of valuable ideal untainted by the reality is unacceptable almost everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

In practice yes, but not in theory, which is an important distinction. To use an analogy, genocide of Jews is an unacceptable ideal, you don't have to try it out to know its bad. In retrospect, no one thought the nazi's plan could have ended up working in a "good" way. Compare that to Lenin and the Bolsheviks, given communism as an ideal alone, it wasn't inherently flawed or "evil", it just turns out people are selfish enough for this not to work, leading to a lot of collateral damage in the form of bad ideals (like genocide).

Fascism is quite similar, though I'm not sure one could say communism is worse than fascism, given that the latter was only tried a couple of times and was put out relatively quickly, while the impact of the former happened over a much longer period of time and under much larger populations.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#172

Post by alienjr »

ck2 wrote: post #98
imglorp wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are congressional intelligence oversight committees, who I'd like to think are aware of these things. More likely, there's a little golf club agreement now and then between some corporation or lobbying group and government agencies. For example, if you guys can help us with a little information and maybe a teensy overthrow, we'll give you some better terms on that spy sat you wanted.

Is that like the congressional committee headed by and filled with people who don't believe in science? https://www.google.com/search?q=congress+committee+anti+scie... Why would you expect any other oversight committee in any other field be competent?

Well, they were elected by a majority who doesn't believe in science. That's why it's strange that most of the people who believe in majority rule are surprised when democratic elections result in such outcomes.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#173

Post by tosseraccount »

patrickburke wrote: post #164
arca_vorago wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are completely wrong about this. There is plenty of evidence to indicate that "shadow groups" of varied interests that sometimes align and sometimes dont, are often pulling the strings of "public puppets". Your view, while common, (especially in the academic world where conspiracy is avoided like the plague) doesnt seem to reflect reality. The conspiratorial view of history is the correct one. Would you l…

This is about the NSA, not the CIA, but still a nice link. "As the most recent National Security Advisor of the United States, I take my daily orders from Dr. Kissinger, filtered down through General Brent Scowcroft and Sandy Berger, who is also here. We have a chain of command in the National Security Council that exists today." http://www.cfr.org/world/remarks-national-security-adviser-j...

The context of that quote was humor.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#174

Post by seanmcdirmid »

jdimov9 wrote: post #136
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal. All of its implementations, however, have been seriously lacking, and perhaps it is unviable in practice; this does not mean the concept is unacceptable in theory.

You are clearly incompetent about the subject. The "ideal" of communism and the practice of communism are not two different things. Communism is practiced precisely the way it is theoretically intended to work. Communism is a cleptocratic system of ruling and exploiting the manual labour and natural resources of any given territory inhabited by unambitious masses that largely lack individualism. The core of the syste…

Are you sure that is how Marx described communism, as a cleptocratic system of ruling and exploiting... I mean, I don't remember reading that at all, just like I don't remember Ayn Rand describing libertarianism as a return feudalism where property rights rule out over the collective of the people.

Are you sure Marx wrote that, or are you letting your own bias into your definition?

For the record, I live in a communist country and don't like how that aspect turned out at all. But I don't blame it on the communism, after all, Russia still has many problems even after they threw off communism. Selfish bad leaders will beat you up with any ideology they find convenient.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#175

Post by patrickaljord »

danharaj wrote: post #168
jdimov9 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been told this a number of times. I've never read any Ayn Rand - probably should. I was, however, born and raised in communism, as were my parents, so I talk from experience.

And i suppose the people of "The Democratic Republic of North Korea" know a thing or two about democracy and republics. There are plenty of communists who categorically reject state communism. They're called anarchists.

Leftist anarchists are against private property though and against turning a profit and individualism. We all know how this ends. Also, how do you enforce the no private property rule without a state and without a private security agency?

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#176

Post by blfr »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #171
blfr wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There isn't anything intrinsically wrong with communism as an ideal. There clearly is. Everywhere it has been tried, it led to at least poverty and usually genocide. Communism has been far, far worse than nazism or fascism and holding national socialism as some sort of valuable ideal untainted by the reality is unacceptable almost everywhere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

In practice yes, but not in theory, which is an important distinction. To use an analogy, genocide of Jews is an unacceptable ideal, you don't have to try it out to know its bad. In retrospect, no one thought the nazi's plan could have ended up working in a "good" way. Compare that to Lenin and the Bolsheviks, given communism as an ideal alone, it wasn't inherently flawed or "evil", it just turns out people are selfi…

It turns out that public ownership of the means of production actually leads to an even worse world than planned, industrial genocide. Part of the reason why is people clinging to this idea long after it has been shown not viable and leading to absolutely horrific events like Holodomor (a Holocaust level genocide before Holocaust) or The Great Leap Forward.

I can see how one might find communism interesting from the perspective of 19th century. I cannot believe anyone still does in the 21st.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#177

Post by Koshkin »

jdimov9 wrote: post #121
HoopleHead wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm presuming you're an American, seeing as you seem to equate being a Communist with being a terrorist. Communism, as a political ideal, is a perfectly acceptable proposition. The fact that many oppressive regimes have declared themselves to be Communist states should not detract from that —any more than the equally evil actions of states which claim to be Democratic, should tarnish the ideals underpinning Democracy…

In what twisted mind is communism an acceptable proposition???

I am not seeing how communism can become a viable idea on a large scale, but on a smaller scale it is nothing new or unusual. In a family people normally share property, food, money, and products of labor. That's communism. Israeli kibbutz is another example.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#179

Post by Pica_soO »

Agency's like the CIA are just symptoms, the obvious to late, to little effort done after problems seem unsolvable by politicians. And they often are. If you have a population that basically votes with there feet for a war every second generation. If you have a social system that depends on constant corruption, to get everyone through the day. If you have resources that allow those in power to get by without any responsibility to there country's. If you got armed groups, which provide to second sons of a second sons a future in guerilla warfare - what is a group of man in a office building to do about that? The answer is nothing. They cant turn stone to bread. They cant reason with the unreasonable. They can try to gamble who gets to sit on the iron throne. The sad fact is- the CIA- on a larger scale, has no power over the population, which going in murderous cycles, stomps there own future into the ground. They make a excellent blame-pinata though.

Re: A former CIA spy has revealed his key role in the arrest of Nelson Mandela

#180

Post by danharaj »

patrickaljord wrote: post #175
danharaj wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And i suppose the people of "The Democratic Republic of North Korea" know a thing or two about democracy and republics. There are plenty of communists who categorically reject state communism. They're called anarchists.

Leftist anarchists are against private property though and against turning a profit and individualism. We all know how this ends. Also, how do you enforce the no private property rule without a state and without a private security agency?

You realize that private property is defined and enforced by a state, right? It doesn't exist until a social structure says "This is yours and we will guarantee it with force of violence if we need to".

Also i'm sure our definitions of individualism are irreconcilably different. Your individualism involves people subordinating others with violence explicit and implicit if you really think capitalism is a pro-individualism system. For me, individualism cannot be separated from collectivism.

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