Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect • Hacker News Board

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#171

Post by TDL » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:27 PM UTC

studentrob wrote: post #146

gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

"You're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater..."

Yes, you are. Look at "Trope Two" in the link below. The post linked is written by Ken White who specializes in the 1st amendment.

https://popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-cens...

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#172

Post by egeozcan » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

Udo wrote: post #59

cm3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. Both parties are to blame, but no matter what a Turk does, it will at least be another 50 years before they're accepted as Germans. Just look at the German media. When somebody with a migration background would get some award, they're quick to point out (s)he is from Germany, hiding the background. But when (s)he does something peo…

> That's because Turks are treated in Germany the same way Moroccans are in Netherlands. I think the experience of this particular group-based conflict varies wildly depending on life circumstances. In particular, living in a nice neighbourhood and purposefully modelling their lives on middle class Germans, my ex' parents didn't see a lot of conflict or direct hostility. But I can still see how they may have felt iso…

I'm really positively surprised how observant you are to these issues. Thank you for your insight, especially great to hear from a German.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#173

Post by splintercell » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:32 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #163

gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

The whole inciting violence question is pretty clear. If someone says "everybody, let's go kill this person or group of people on Saturday at Noon". THAT, is inciting violence.

It isn't actually. What happens in other countries is, nobody ever says "Everybody, lets go kill this person", rather "Everybody, the other community must pay".

If the courts and police starts prosecuting that kind of euphemism laden language, then they shift further.

On the other hand, keep everything open and people tend to learn and build filters for stuff like this.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#174

Post by xorcist » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:33 PM UTC

Tomte wrote: post #158

hartator wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks. Actually, it is. Freedom of speech can't be whatever seems civil to each person, it's a binary issue. Either you have it or you don't. For example, France, which seems freer than Turkey, actually just fined a comedian that have insulted the prime minister of half retarded Musolinni. That's not okay and it's not fundamentaly differ…

That's the predominant American view, which is pretty... extremist. Sure, "free speech exactly like in the US" is a binary issue. Free speech, as sensibly construed, is a whole spectrum.

The US has a higher tolerance for hate speech, but that doesn't mean you're allowed to say anything. The bar is comparably low to sue for defamation and libel, for example. Pretty much only the UK (perhaps France?) is less free in that particular aspect for comparable countries.

And free speech is not very useful unless you have access to ways to practice it. In a country where mass media practice active censorship voluntarily (against "wardrobe malfunctions" and swear words) in order to avoid state sanctions, that absolutist view gets a bit problematic.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#175

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:35 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #163

gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

The whole inciting violence question is pretty clear. If someone says "everybody, let's go kill this person or group of people on Saturday at Noon". THAT, is inciting violence.

[deleted]

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#176

Post by studentrob » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:37 PM UTC

nl wrote: post #162

studentrob wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan. He is merely pointing out that his actions in attempting to censor foreign media have motives which aren't obvious. When one looks at his actions in the light of those motives his actions make a lot of sense. Without those motives his actions appear stupid.

> It's probably worth noting that I don't think @gkya is supporting Erdogan

Thanks, I see that now. Some of @gkya's words sounded like they take the opposite viewpoint, such as,

>> Speech should not be regulated in any ways

>> Freedom of speech does not mean irresponsible and banale flow of whatever one thinks.

>> freedom of speech must not mean that one can be reckless, inconsiderate and demeaning.

It reads like it was unedited and is very hard to follow

> When one looks at his actions in the light of those motives his actions make a lot of sense. Without those motives his actions appear stupid.

I disagree, see my comments about astute businessmen not using yes-men above. No worries if we don't agree here. Countries are most certainly businesses. They're in the business of acquiring people who generate money.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#177

Post by gukov » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:39 PM UTC

6stringmerc wrote: post #149

soundwave106 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donald Trump reminds me more of Silvio Berlusconi than Erdogan, personally. Berlusconi was nowhere near Erdogan's style of strongman politics, but unfortunately, during his term, Berlusconi did stifle press freedom somewhat in Italy... primarily via questionable libel lawsuits against any critical outlet if I recall. It's easy for me to see Donald Trump following a similar pattern, of attempting to sue any critical o…

Absolutely; he's stated as much flat out. "I want to make it easier to sue the press." As Trump so clearly shows, it's very easy to sue somebody in the US (or use it as an empty threat) - there's lots of avenues for recourse. Unfortunately for Trump, the courts have consistently sided with the press when they report accurate and factual statements, even if they may be unflattering. This doesn't seem to register with…

So let him sue and let the courts deal with it.

Do you think the media needs to be a little more accountable or the hysteria is good?

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#178

Post by studentrob » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

TDL wrote: post #171

studentrob wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure The US is strong in the business world because they endure differing opinions! Astute businessmen can see how limiting free speech limits their own success. Good businessmen do not surround themselves with yes-men. When you limit free speech of a country, you cut off most of your people from certain intelligence. You could argue the intelligence agency has…

"You're not allowed to yell fire in a crowded theater..." Yes, you are. Look at "Trope Two" in the link below. The post linked is written by Ken White who specializes in the 1st amendment. https://popehat.com/2015/05/19/how-to-spot-and-critique-cens...

Interesting, thanks for the correction. Maybe instead we can say, you're not allowed to threaten someone's life. The point is there are limits to free speech, even in America, though there are less limits there than in Europe where hate speech laws have been introduced.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#179

Post by jeroen » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:42 PM UTC

stale2002 wrote: post #163

gkya wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take Erdogan as a businessman instead of a political figure. Because that's what he does. Since when he started his political career, even before the AKP days, he and his family prospered to an incredible level. That's all the care, and the support comes from the businessmen trying to get some benefit out of the business. So the case of Turkey is the case of a group that fruits the state's resources for enrichment of…

The whole inciting violence question is pretty clear. If someone says "everybody, let's go kill this person or group of people on Saturday at Noon". THAT, is inciting violence.

No, it isn't clear. Just because you can come up with one obvious example does not mean there aren't many situations that are less obvious.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#180

Post by 0xFFC » Thu, Mar 31, 2016, 4:43 PM UTC

calibraxis wrote: post #74

sydneysider wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with the incompatible cultures and values.

If EU were decent, they'd delist Erdogan's enemy the PKK from the terrorist list. The PKK could teach the EU how to improve European society: ( http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/30/opinions/rojava-kurds-syri... ) Not to mention the PKK would obviously help end ISIS.

This is pure nonsense. Are you kidding me ? do you have any idea what you are talking about ?

Even Iraqi Kurds trying to ban PKK because they know what's going on in that organization. Even Kurds in turkey are not happy with PKK. They want a reform , but most of them wants stay in turkey, while the "being Turkish citizen definition changed".Look at how popular HDP is in Kurdish areas in Turkey.

You have no clue what are you talking about. for further reference , please read/listen to Henri Barkey from Woodrow Wilson which is well respected political scientist.