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The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

aeon.co

171–180 of 212 posts

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"intitle:duckduckgo site:news.ycombinator.com" and then further narrowing down by restricting to past year.

You can use "!hn duckduckgo" that usually works better.

I doubt that works "better" and certainly there is no bang for every site.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so?

So what's better about paying via taxes instead of paying directly?

When something is paid for directly (and consequentially cannot be afforded by some), it will be biased towards the opinions of its backers, and thus, the wealthy.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#173
post #61
post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

Read the original PageRank paper. Page and Brin themselves acknowledge that (while they were still academics): [L]ess blatant bias are likely to be tolerated by the market. For example, a search engine could add a small factor to search results from "friendly" companies, and subtract a factor from results from competitors. This type of bias is very difficult to detect but could still have a significant effect on the…

This was obvious back when Yahoo, WebSpider (Spidercrawler), AskJeeves, and AltaVista did it.

It was ridiculous that you would type in "Delta Airlines tickets" and the results would go: United Airlines, TWA, Fly By Night Corp, Rickety Rickshaw Airlines, We Barely Stay in the Air, and DuctTape & Flights.

The results were so bad that when Google came along and used the PageRank feature to deliver information, it was a godsend (Thanks God). Try searching for something on Google today and there is a high likelihood that you find or at least get close to it.

Just remembering how bad it was back in the day until the web search engines got their act together and became Bing and Google.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally I've found Google to be frustratingly difficult to search in recent years. I can't find articles & essays that I remember fondly because the namespace is so polluted with Great SEO.

Have you fond a better search engine? I keep failing to find what I need on DuckDuckGo or it's kin and having to go onto Google, where I find what I was looking for. Of course, one can always suggest that I am just better attuned to Google (I have Google Fu from long experience with Google and wrongfully expect DuckDuckGo Fu to be the same skill and have not developed DuckDuckGo Fu).

No, DDG often fails me too. Especially when searching for programmer things -- sometimes what I really meant to search for is StackOverflow.com + any "programming blog.

Search for programmers?

At the risk of sounding melodramatic, the internet is a great idea but the implementation sucks and there's no easy way to fix it.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#175
post #9

I have made this case before, but I will make it again. The Internet is the largest information system in the world, and Google is the primary portal into that information system. Google's "organic" results are accompanied by AdWords results, which are based on a mixture of bid price and relevance. These ads are marked with a small "Ad" label that many people miss, and even those who know they're ads can't really "un…

The library is a catalog of books produced by publishers for the sake of making money. Your example doesn't hold weight, as there is no "purity of information". Even your own insights are filtered through the perspective of your personal influence, your wants, your desires, your history, etc. Google is no different. The organic search results are largely from commercial, or at a minimum, self-interested sources. That…

>The library is a catalog of books produced by publishers for the sake of making money.

That's not what he asked though. Generally libraries don't have special "sponsored" books, and don't control and push certain books to people more than others.

Those libraries that do, fall into 2 categories:

1) Promoting widely recognized cultural works (e.g. with events like "Mark Twain Year", etc).

2) Promoting some ideological agenda (e.g. a creationist library in a religious school).

The latter are dangerous.

Google, besides the opportunities for pushing its own corporate/political agenda, has also financial motives for pushing ads/brands.

Besides there's another key difference: there are thousands upon thousands of libraries (and people don't care much about them anyway). There's only one Google (and the majority of web users use it everyday).

>That doesn't make it wrong.

I wonder what some people DO find wrong. Apart from things like cannibalism and hurting kittens, which we all probably agree on.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you fond a better search engine? I keep failing to find what I need on DuckDuckGo or it's kin and having to go onto Google, where I find what I was looking for. Of course, one can always suggest that I am just better attuned to Google (I have Google Fu from long experience with Google and wrongfully expect DuckDuckGo Fu to be the same skill and have not developed DuckDuckGo Fu).

> I keep failing to find what I need on DuckDuckGo or it's kin and having to go onto Google What's an example of a search that fails to find what you need?

There's been a dozen things I've tried to search on HN, for example, looking for keywords and there's literally dozens of other links with similar topics that prevents me from finding what I looked for.

Various programming questions. Don't have an example right now, sorry.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#177
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you kidding me? Of the major companies out there, almost all of them made money from bad products. McDonald's food is so unhealthy it makes you ill almost immediately when it's even edible. Comcast is hated almost universally for their crap internet and crapper customer service. Fox News makes money by actively deceiving their customers. These aren't exceptions to the rule: these are the rule . They're leaders in…

I disagree with you on every point here. McDonalds provides a consistent array of food and beverages across many countries, and many people (especially children) enjoy the experience in their restaurant. Comcast is often the only provider of Internet services, and in other instances provides faster or cheaper service than their competitors. Fox News is like every other news channel, in that it informs their viewers w…

>The fact that you or I dislike a product does not make it 'bad'*

Yes. Bad requires either a quantifiable judgement (McDonalds fares poorly in healthiness, nutricients, calories and lots of other metrics), or a qualitative one, based on some sort of agreed ypon "what constitutes good food" standard -- which in the end comes from what vision one has for the world.

Even if the latter is not objectively verifiable (that a steak at Peter Luger is better than a Chipotle one for example), I still find a society where isn't enough common agreement to label McDonalds as bad, a sad one.

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The library doesn't make money through directing you to particular books or sell publishers your reading habits.

That's because the library is funded by taxpayers – it doesn't need the money. How would you feel about a government-sponsored search engine? I think China has one of those.

How would you feel about a for-profit Wikipedia?

> Today's features article: McDonalds!

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what's better about paying via taxes instead of paying directly?

When something is paid for directly (and consequentially cannot be afforded by some), it will be biased towards the opinions of its backers, and thus, the wealthy.

And when it's paid for by the government, it will be biased towards the opinions of government officials, their backers, and thus, the wealthy (or the influential, in a political system where money has less influence than in the US).

Re: The New Mind Control – The internet has spawned subtle forms of influence

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The library is a catalog of books produced by publishers for the sake of making money. Your example doesn't hold weight, as there is no "purity of information". Even your own insights are filtered through the perspective of your personal influence, your wants, your desires, your history, etc. Google is no different. The organic search results are largely from commercial, or at a minimum, self-interested sources. That…

> The library is a catalog of books produced by publishers for the sake of making money. That's not what he asked though. Generally libraries don't have special "sponsored" books, and don't control and push certain books to people more than others. Those libraries that do, fall into 2 categories: 1) Promoting widely recognized cultural works (e.g. with events like "Mark Twain Year", etc). 2) Promoting some ideologica…

You're missing the point that organic results are also hugely influenced by financial motive. The underlying concept is that all information is biased.

A system that incorporates bias is vastly more useful than one that ignores it.

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