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We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

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Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#171

Post by EGreg »

nitrogen wrote: post #154
atonse wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those examples where a totally well intentioned move is completely misunderstood. What is the purpose of an interview? To see if someone's a good fit and works well with you. Interviews don't tell you that. Working with the people fixes that. At least these are paid contracts. It's one thing if they were unpaid, then sure, yes it sucks. But it's the equivalent of doing a freelance gig for a couple of w…

I think they find it disgusting because all the risk is shifted onto the employee. By the time 3-8 weeks have elapsed, the employee has definitely quit or lost their previous job, so if they don't get hired, they will be involuntarily unemployed, with no prospects because they've been busy with their "audition".

I think the problem is that full-time employment and everything around it is like keeping animals in a zoo. You hope and beg for vacation time. You pretend to work 8 (actually 10 to "look good") hours even if you finish all your work in 1. The most personal work you can hope to retain after you leave, beyond a blurb on your resume is to sneak around behind your employer's back and work on your own stuff. There is tons of politics.

The salary negotiation is itself about trading getting the employer to basically take care of you (especially in Japanese corporations, as patio11 often mentions) so you can reduce your risk. The infantile mentality inculcated in people receiving conditional welfare is present in FTE -- pg's essay about schools and jails would be applicable here. One can even argue that our education system has been designed to prepare the majority for being obedient and loyal FTE workers.

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

I'd rather society replaced all this with an UNCONDITIONAL basic income for everyone and everyone would be free from any age to work as a self employed contractor. That would effectively abolish the minimum wage and let people learn through doing projects where they are treated with respect, not as animals in a zoo.

I think libertarians talking about philosophical freedoms should take a serious look at actual personal freedom as defined by the range of options each person has.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#172

Post by brooklyndavs »

dominotw wrote: post #131
maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

So its basically extended interview for like 8 weeks where your every move is being watched/judged. When did it become ok to treat people like shit and humiliate them with these ridiculous "interviews". Seems like we keep coming up one worse idea after another. Shame on everyone who thinks its ok to humiliate people with your idiotic algorithm/whiteboard/big O interviews. This is getting so out of hand. Can we bring…

Completely agree. Do accountants have to work on the companies books for 8 weeks as a "trial period"? Does a mechanical engineer have to build widget X on the spot during the interview process? No, for most jobs they look at your background, talk to you about your experience, talk to your references, etc. And if they don't work out, even after some coaching and career development? Lay them off.

And don't give me xyz about how hard it is to fire someone. Owners with people working for them in other professions don't seem to have this problem and they lay people off at will.

I know that owners and funders are trying to reduce risk as much as possible and this is one way they feel like they can. However, as the article even states, startups fail for all sorts of reasons. Newsflash, staring and running a company is a risky thing to do! Thats why if you succeed there is a large reward!

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#173

Post by monkmartinez »

darryl42 wrote: post #170
monkmartinez wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like a Police, Fire, and/or Military hiring process. For example; The test to get hired with my fire department was 2 hours long. 1800+ people took the test: 400 passed. Then you have to pass a Physical test: 250 passed. Then there are two formal interviews: 150 passed. Then the final selection of 50. After the selection, the candidate is required to pass a 22 week academy. The attrition rate in the acade…

And if you move between cities or switch fire halls you are back to writing the the test? This is the equivalent of getting into the school you want, not a job interview.

I am not sure I understand what you mean exactly. You can't just "switch" fire departments without the "process", at least I am not aware of any. If I wanted to move, I would have to do most, if not all of the "process" over again... complete with no guarantees.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#174

Post by stuxnet79 »

wdmeldon wrote: post #73
bdavisx wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.

Wow. 11 years before you gave up on them changing. That's both impressive and depressing. I lasted about 2 and half years last place I worked.

2 and a half years also feels too long to me. But in order to not look like a "job hopper" is that the standard time I should expect to stay at a place or is 1 year good enough.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#175

Post by rdtsc »

potatolicious wrote: post #163
maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

This strategy seems like it would effectively choose the best candidates out of the pool labeled "desperate people". It mostly categorically excludes anyone who has market desirability and doesn't have to put up with it. I suppose it could work in parts of the country/world where the supply of engineers vastly exceeds the number of jobs, but it likely fails spectacularly in anything resembling a tech hub. This strike…

That is the same idea behind take-home tests. "Code this App. It should be 5 hours worth of work. Get back to use when you are done".

I asked a friend who hires for his start-up why they do it. And their answer was exactly what you suggested -- to find desperate people and it also requires minimum investment of their time to start with. The rationale is because in the end they'd have to invest a significant amount of their time during the delivery crunch, that ends up selecting for that trait pretty well.

He spoke as a friend, and will probably never say or admit it in public to the outside. But yeah it is something that happens. I imagine they are not the only ones who came up with that realization.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#176

Post by dsp1234 »

MajorLOL wrote: post #156

>Those of us who have families simply can not afford to do this. Then don't take the job? Your life choices (Children, wife, loan payments) aren't the fault or social responsibility of your prospective employer. Why get so uppity about a job you aren't even going to apply for?

Some of the "best" are going to have families, and existing jobs. Thus, if this process helps eliminate those candidates, then the basic thesis of "we hire the best" is by definition false. With a more accurate statement being, "we hire the best of those who are willing to jump through our company specific hoops".

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#177

Post by [deleted] »

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

[deleted]

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#178

Post by brooklyndavs »

monkmartinez wrote: post #161
maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

This sounds like a Police, Fire, and/or Military hiring process. For example; The test to get hired with my fire department was 2 hours long. 1800+ people took the test: 400 passed. Then you have to pass a Physical test: 250 passed. Then there are two formal interviews: 150 passed. Then the final selection of 50. After the selection, the candidate is required to pass a 22 week academy. The attrition rate in the acade…

Between this and the software engineer vs developer article that was on the front page yesterday I really am starting to think if our industry needs to start taking some sort of industry wide recognized professional certificate into consideration. I know IEEE offers some but I've never met anyone who actually has one.

I love how egalitarian software development and engineering is but I think the root of the problem is I as a hiring manager don't trust you can do the things you say you can do. So I'm going to use a test/trail period/white-boarding session to find that out. While making it a little less open an industry wide certificate would at least certify a minimal skill set level for everyone.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#179

Post by jethro_tell »

marcosdumay wrote: post #112
sandworm101 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would add one proviso, that training can only occur where a company already has someone capable of teaching. A raw recruit may do well if they are trained, but someone has to train them. Most startups seem looking to hire skills rather than people. They want to bring in skills nobody already on board has. Without any form of mentor, the raw recruit will always fail. My big issue: Startup hiring kids to do work that…

> training can only occur where a company already has someone capable of teaching Is that true? Maybe for a subset of people, and (union) a subset of the skills. But one can surely improve their knowledge in an environment where there is nobody able to teach him. The environment must support a few failures, because they'll happen, but it is possible.

This works less well when you have only 4 people. I've worked on both kinds of teams and done extensive training and have often pushed to hire people who want to learn over people who know.

Most times, the premise of a start up is that 2-4 people with well developed non overlapping skills get together and build something with each being such an integral part that they are worth a good chunk of equity. Perhaps 5/6 is a CS person that you train as OPs / Dev on the side. But most companies don't have the time or man power until the team gets into the double digits.

On the other hand, if you want to build a pipeline to solve tomorrows hiring problems, go out and interview unskilled people that want to do the job you have. There's some wash out but generally you can make a pretty good batch of people. I've done this in a couple places and it can be very rewarding not to mention as they start to develop and move out to other teams they are often willing to spend some time giving back to the program that helped them up on the ladder. Which means that you have more eyes and hands helping develop people and more time for coffee.

Re: We Hire the Best, Just Like Everyone Else

#180

Post by [deleted] »

maxaf wrote: post #127

> The most significant shift we’ve made is requiring every final candidate to work with us for three to eight weeks on a contract basis. Are you fucking kidding me? What am I going to tell my current employer while I "audition" for the mere possibility of a next job? Most working adults in the US don't even get three to eight weeks of discretionary vacation that they aren't already using to spend time with family or,…

[deleted]
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