Earlier quoted context omitted.
>They spend an awful lot of time at work, most of it on looking like they're working. Guilty. If I could switch to a 4 day work week, I'd get the same amount done, but spend a bit less time on Hacker News and other distractions. Hell, let me work a 2 day week and I'd cut out all distractions to finish what was needed.
Are you going to work for 80% or 40% of your current salary?
Working fewer hours would make us more productive
171–180 of 253 posts
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#172I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.
If you only have seven good hours a day in you, does that mean the rest of the day that you spend with your family, reading, exercising at the gym, or whatever other virtuous activity you would be spending your time on, are all done poorly? No, it just means that focusing on a single thing for an extended period of time is challenging.
Whatever the grand strategy for success is, it gets broken down into lots of smaller tasks. When you hit a wall on one task, you could say “that’s it, I’m done for the day” and head home, or you could switch over to something else that has a different rhythm and get more accomplished. Even when you are clearly not at your peak, there is always plenty to do that doesn’t require your best, and it would actually be a waste to spend your best time on it. You can also “go to the gym” for your work by studying, exploring, and experimenting, spending more hours in service to the goal.
I think most people excited by these articles are confusing not being aligned with their job’s goals with questions of effectiveness. If you don’t want to work, and don’t really care about your work, less hours for the same pay sounds great! If you personally care about what you are doing, you don’t stop at 40 hours a week because you think it is optimal for the work, but rather because you are balancing it against something else that you find equally important. Which is fine.
Given two equally talented people, the one that pursues a goal obsessively, for well over 40 hours a week, is going to achieve more. They might be less happy and healthy, but I’m not even sure about that. Obsession can be rather fulfilling, although probably not across an entire lifetime.
This particular article does touch on a goal that isn’t usually explicitly stated: it would make the world “less unequal” if everyone was prevented from working longer hours. Yes, it would, but I am deeply appalled at the thought of trading away individual freedom of action and additional value in the world for that goal.
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Look at seatbelt use: decades of public awareness campaigns did nothing, but once it became a legal requirement people switched. That's not true. http://web.stanford.edu/~leinav/pubs/RESTAT2003.pdf Page 835. Total average of seatbelt usage, before law: 31%, after law: 48%, in 1998: 65%.
I'm confused. That proves his point. Every state at a secondary enforcement seat belt law before 1998. Every state aside from Maine and South Dakota (both of which had relatively high seat belt usage before the law) saw an increase in seat belt usage post-law. I think you might be confused by the 1998 number. That year came after the after law percentage. Meaning that enforcement immediately after the law also worked…
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#174Of course, capitalists tend to dislike the idea of lowering hours this way. For them, it amounts to a reduction in profit.
If hours are lowered, capitalists will presumably then invest to improve productivity so that the same output can be produced in fewer hours. When they succeed, their rate of profit improves.
Increased productivity without vast new markets opening up means that, in turn, unemployment will again rise.
So there is a virtuous cycle: Cut the work week without cutting wages. Wait for productivity to catch up. Cut the work week again.
If we had an aggressive policy of cutting hours whenever unemployment is too high, and we do this across the board for all sectors, perhaps before long farms will be more fully worked by robots, and so on.
The author of the article wrote: "John Maynard Keynes predicted in the 1930s that by about now, we would all be working a mere 15 hours a week."
Keynes did but it was Marx and Engels who predicted in the 19th century that we'd have to fight for hours reduction every step of the way.
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#175I just finished reading The Masters of Doom and really got the impression that working more hours made Carmack more productive than nearly everyone else in the field.
I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…
(As of writing, account created 325 days ago, 1 comment and 2 karma)
It shouldn't really matter because it's 'appeal to authority', but thoughts on worklife/productivity by the Elon Musk's or John Carmack's of the world really do have more impact
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…
Are you really John Carmack? (As of writing, account created 325 days ago, 1 comment and 2 karma) It shouldn't really matter because it's 'appeal to authority', but thoughts on worklife/productivity by the Elon Musk's or John Carmack's of the world really do have more impact
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#177Earlier quoted context omitted.
I find these “shorter work weeks are just as effective” articles to be nonsense, at least for knowledge workers with some tactical discretion. I can imagine productivity at an assembly line job having a peak such that overworking grinds someone down to the point that they become a liability, but people that claim working nine hours in a day instead of eight gives no (or negative) additional benefit are either being d…
Are you really John Carmack? (As of writing, account created 325 days ago, 1 comment and 2 karma) It shouldn't really matter because it's 'appeal to authority', but thoughts on worklife/productivity by the Elon Musk's or John Carmack's of the world really do have more impact
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm confused. That proves his point. Every state at a secondary enforcement seat belt law before 1998. Every state aside from Maine and South Dakota (both of which had relatively high seat belt usage before the law) saw an increase in seat belt usage post-law. I think you might be confused by the 1998 number. That year came after the after law percentage. Meaning that enforcement immediately after the law also worked…
No, the law only brought the 17% of change. The law change is binary and sudden, but the change in culture brought all the rest, gradually, year after year, before law and after.
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
How did you manage to arrange that? I can't imagine going to my boss and proposing I spend 20% less time working for the same amount of pay, and getting approval for that.
Who said the pay was the same? I'd be happy to take a 20% pay cut for a 4-day work week at some point in my life. I have a semi-retired relative who does just that. As it is now, I'm vocal at reviews that I'll take more days off per year in lieu of direct salary increase -- an idea which seems to throw people off and hasn't been seriously entertained. At some point, I'll make enough annually, that I'll simply start t…
But the reality is that many managers and employers only support the part that benefits them. Even many of the ones that are supportive of someone taking a Friday off every other week feel that they're doing you a favor or giving you a "perk". At the end of the day your manager has to support it (and if necessary continue believing they're doing you a favor) because they can find a way to shit-can you if you start pushing boundaries they're not comfortable with (in the US).
Re: Working fewer hours would make us more productive
#180I worked at 50% capacity for some years. It was just great until I chose to want more money for the time being and returned to 70% capacity. That was just great, too, until I realized that I was as productive as a full-time guy without the full-time pay so I eventually went back full-time but trying to keep my output roughly on the same level as I had been getting good reviews all the time. However, last year I got t…
How do you manage these? I'm most productive that way too. But the trouble is I'll keep going longer than I should, and then I just get tired and unproductive and not sensible enough to rest. Are there signs you look for to leave it on a high note, or do you use hard time limits?
That way he had an easy start next day.
Perhaps it's also a good method to work as a programmer? Don't fight to close that ticket before the end of the day?