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New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

reuters.com

171–180 of 245 posts

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#171

Model airplanes have been around for ages and are generally used by very responsible operators. Local airports and the FAA often have a good working relationship with the local model aircraft club. The issue with "drones" (which are really just a type of model aircraft) is a wave of irresponsible operators. The regulators aren't looking to regulate the space because they were bored and looking for something to do. Th…

I see very little wrong with this simple registration step. As a drone owner, it costs me a minimal charge, doesn't impair my drone's operation with onerous rules. (Some were considering things like geofencing being MANDATORY!) It merely asks me to tag my drone with a number, which isn't a big deal at all.

I'd argue this has been actually a fantastic example of the government working in moderation. They involved drone manufacturers, commercial operators, and hobbyist groups directly in the discussion process, you can see it throughout their documentation. The community was well-invested in this entire process.

They've avoided any sort of crazy burden that would kill the drone industry, but they've offered a clear step to say that they're watching, and put in a basic framework that, while imperfect, gives them a starting point in an investigation.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#172
post #39

The comments here really surprise me. My dad's a pilot, and I've heard from him firsthand how drones are a very serious problem for airplanes. Comments like "this is just one more example of tracking" or "I can't believe I have to do this even if it's only for my house" seem to be said out of anger rather than from serious consideration of the issues with drones. Your $30 drone can very easily cause someone else's $1…

For most people it should be close to a non-issue. Learn the rules of operating safely, don't be dumb, you'll be fine. If all you do is play with drones recreationally you're not going to run afoul of the rules. The things that are going to get people in trouble are flying their drones way too high (which isn't easy for a lot of off the shelf drones to start with), or flying in areas where they obviously shouldn't be…

What about airports located within city limits?

The things that are going to get people in trouble are flying their drones way too high

The people flying the drones aren't getting themselves into trouble. They're getting others into trouble. They themselves are perfectly safe. They're dumping a huge externality onto anyone who flies in an airplane.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also used to be a requirement that you knew how to fly the aircraft, which wasn't much easier than flying a real airplane, and in the case of R/C helicopters was actual harder than flying a full-sized manned helicopter. With the latest multicopters and even some of the electric fixed-wing craft, any moron can keep the thing in the air. Hence the current wave of trouble.

Fixed-wing models have been idiot-proof for a long time. You can buy a beginner's kit at any hobby store, and they're much easier to fly than a multirotor. I don't think accessibility is responsible for the recent popularity of multirotors, I think they're just more interesting because they're unlike anything full-sized.

Guess I'm just old then. When I was learning, most models would barely fly, and then only if you flew them perfectly.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#174
post #39

The comments here really surprise me. My dad's a pilot, and I've heard from him firsthand how drones are a very serious problem for airplanes. Comments like "this is just one more example of tracking" or "I can't believe I have to do this even if it's only for my house" seem to be said out of anger rather than from serious consideration of the issues with drones. Your $30 drone can very easily cause someone else's $1…

The last time I saw the topic of drones and aircraft collisions on the front page (maybe a week ago), the entire comment thread was filled with people downplaying the dangers, casting doubt on whether it even mattered, saying a three-pound (!) drone wouldn't do any actual damage on impact, etc. I find the community attitude here to be completely insane. Regulation isn't necessarily the answer, but the general theme h…

Regulation isn't necessarily the answer, but the general theme here seems to be "regulation isn't the answer, because there's no risk of collision, and a small aircraft colliding with a 3lb drone at 150MPH won't suffer any damage anyway."

This being HN, more likely it's "all regulation is morally evil".

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#175
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After law: "Crap, now if anything happens this is gonna get traced right back to me and my life is gonna be ruined, maybe I shouldn't like a moron." People willing to break one aspect of the law are generally willing to break other parts as well.

Sure, but this means you now can't fly in a park or any public space without the risk of a police officer coming by and asking to see your registration. I'm assuming police would be empowered to do that?

If I'm in a park or public space where it's legal to fly and I'm not a hazard to the public, the police shouldn't come over and ask to inspect my paperwork. The government should not assume I'm breaking the law by default.

If I'm at an airport where it's not legal to fly, it doesn't matter if I have a registration or not, I'm already breaking the law.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the drone pilot is flying outside of controlled airspace (e.g. airport, major event, etc) and below 1,000 feet, and somehow an aircraft and drone collide then it is the aircraft pilot's fault. It is illegal to fly below 1,000 feet except in an emergency or in controlled airspace. If your "dad" is routinely flying low enough over urban areas so that drones are a legitimate concern then they're likely also routinely…

Aircraft regularly operate below 1,000 feet in urban areas when taking off or landing. Not all airports are in the middle of nowhere! Most of these "drone sightings" being reported are near airports since that's when aircraft are flying low. There have also been cases of idiots taking drones up several thousands feet and encountering aircraft further from airports.

> Aircraft regularly operate below 1,000 feet in urban areas when taking off or landing.

The very first line of what I said is: "If the drone pilot is flying outside of controlled airspace (e.g. airport, major event, etc)."

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#177
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a done does there is no tracking number and the pilot is safe at home. Thing is, model aircraft hobbyists have been -for the most part- safely and responsibly flying RC aircraft for nearly a hundred years. These fliers haven't had any FAA registration requirement, and have not been required to put identifying information in their aircraft. The Academy of Model Aeronautics has been around -and doing great good- s…

My wife works in this field, and the AMA has done a great job so far. The issue isn't that they aren't doing a good job it's that the price point for model aircraft has dropped so substantially that they can't keep up with it anymore, and commercial drone operations is finally practical. It was AMA who kept these regulations at bay, but the increasing amount of people who are misusing them and Amazon, Google, etc. th…

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the AMA isn't currently doing a good job. They're goddamn great! :)

> ...[the issue is] that the price point for model aircraft has dropped so substantially that they can't keep up with it anymore...

I'm not entirely sure that that's true. If I'm remembering my prices correctly, you've been able to get started in the hobby for a few hundred dollars for a long while.

My theory: Helicopters are substantially cooler than fixed-wing aircraft, and can be flown in really small spaces. However, they are hard as fuck to fly [0], mechanically complex, comparatively expensive, fragile, and prone to breakage. Now, quadcopters with computer-controlled motors are substantially cheaper and more durable than RC helicopters, and can -crucially- be flown by anyone who has at least half a brain and one hand... just press the "up" lever and away you go! The time investment barrier to entry has dramatically been lowered, making the hobby approachable by every yahoo who lacks the patience to ask "Am I using my toy in a safe and sane manner?". [1]

It's very clear that the AMA hasn't been able to get major retailers to do what the downtown airplane store reliably does. It -IMO- isn't a matter of keeping up with demand, but rather influencing big players (who previously would never have stocked RC aircraft) to help steer newcomers into the preexisting training program.

> ...the increasing amount of people who are misusing them and Amazon, Google, etc. that want to create drone flight paths has forced the governments hand.

This seems like an ideal situation: Commercial operators are regulated by the FAA, and are required to register their craft, file flight plans and whatever. Commercial operators should always be subject to some degree of regulation and oversight. Hobbyist operators who are a member of a model aircraft club (or were a member in good standing for $A_WHILE in the past) are obligated to follow FAA, AMA, and club guidelines and are liable for violations of FAA general regulations regarding interactions between model and full-scale aircraft, but are not required to register themselves or their craft with the FAA. Hobbyist operators who aren't and have never been associated with a club? If the danger that the FAA is reacting to is real and not overblown media-driven hysteria, require them to register with the FAA and ID their craft until they can either pass a training course to demonstrate that they're responsible, or they join a local model airplane club and get trained.

Like I said, it's pretty clear that the training provided by model airplane clubs has enabled folks to safely and responsibly regularly fly substantially more dangerous aircraft than most any quadcopter. The training provided by these clubs works.

It's a shame that the FAA seems to feel that it suddenly needs to make folks who are part of a very successful, long-standing nationwide flight training program submit to pilot registration and aircraft identification.

[0] I mean goddamn _fucking_ hard.

[1] Don't get me wrong, here... making the hobby more accessible and lowering barriers to entry is good. Model aviation is fun, largely wholesome, and can be a gateway drug to things like woodworking and aerospace engineering. ;) However, it is -IMO- dreadfully important to leave the "learn how to operate your toy in a way that doesn't endanger yourself and others" barrier intact.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the drone pilot is flying outside of controlled airspace (e.g. airport, major event, etc) and below 1,000 feet, and somehow an aircraft and drone collide then it is the aircraft pilot's fault. It is illegal to fly below 1,000 feet except in an emergency or in controlled airspace. If your "dad" is routinely flying low enough over urban areas so that drones are a legitimate concern then they're likely also routinely…

"It is illegal to fly below 1,000 feet" Where on earth did you read that? Yes, the rule is 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a radius of 2,000 feet when over a congested area, but when not flying over a city, minimum altitude is 500 feet.

> Where on earth did you read that?

Why did you ask me and then quote the exact regs back verbatim? Why ask a rhetorical question with the implication that I am wrong if your very next sentence is going to confirm that I am indeed correct?

As you yourself said, 1000 feet is the minimum allowed in most normal situations. You can go fly over the desert at 500 feet if you wish, but drones won't be an issue out there.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#179
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct. Having no power in a model airplane is definitely an issue. My main point being, however, it's arguably far easier to manuver an airplane after motor failure than a drone/quadcopter.

Is motor failure that frequent of a failure mode? I feel like complete electric failure (out of range) is much more likely in which case it will still fall like a rock?

Models (non-FPV) are typically flown until they deplete their power supply, which happens rapidly. For small electric models this is usually 6-8 minutes. Larger electric models and gas (usually nitromethane) models can sometimes stay up for 15 minutes or more, depending on how hard you're hitting the power.

Gas models use a separate battery pack for running the receiver and servos. Electric models usually use the same pack (via "battery eliminator circuit"), but there's a low-voltage cutoff that cuts the motor power off while there's still enough power to run the electronics. There's typically a "soft-cutoff" feature that allows you to restart the motors if you need power to land - you get maybe a 10 second burst of low power or 5 seconds at medium power before the cutoff trips again. It can help to stretch out an approach if you're downwind and not going to make the field.

Either way there is no technical problem with making a power-off landing. Such "deadstick" landings are very standard in the RC world, and most fields will want to see trainee pilots make several of them on a "buddy box" system under the control of an instructor before they will approve you to fly alone. They're no big deal as long as you're being responsible with where you're flying.

Radio range is essentially "as far as you have a line-of-sight". Typical radios will have a range of 1.5-3 miles but you'll lose visual on the aircraft at a fraction of that distance. Some micro-sized parkflyer aircraft have less sensitive receivers, but since they're smaller you'll lose visual at shorter ranges too. Some radios have longer range, particularly amateur radio operators who can operate with greater transmitter power. These are popular with the FPV crowd, but to operate on these bands you must have your callsign and address on the plane.

The long range can actually be a bit of a problem because the signals really will go quite far, and can result in intermittent loss of control if someone else is operating on that frequency. AMA-licensed fields have a pinboard (if you don't have the clothespin with your frequency on it, you can't turn your radio on), and the fields are spaced out far enough to avoid this (typically a minimum of 5 miles). You're supposed to check before you just go fly somewhere, but some people don't. 2.4 GHz spread-spectrum radios are getting very popular nowadays because they're largely immune to these radio hits.

Re: New U.S. FAA rule requires drone owners to register by Feb 19

#180
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the drone pilot is flying outside of controlled airspace (e.g. airport, major event, etc) and below 1,000 feet, and somehow an aircraft and drone collide then it is the aircraft pilot's fault. It is illegal to fly below 1,000 feet except in an emergency or in controlled airspace. If your "dad" is routinely flying low enough over urban areas so that drones are a legitimate concern then they're likely also routinely…

> It is illegal to fly below 1,000 feet except in an emergency or in controlled airspace. Not if you're flying a helicopter, which does not have a height restriction. Also, if an airplane pilot is flying below 1000' AGL, not only do they have a large, highly visible tail number that will identify them... they're also putting their own life at risk. On the flip side, there are clearly some quadcopter pilots that fly a…

> Not if you're flying a helicopter, which does not have a height restriction.

They don't have a set "in stone" one like fixed wing aircraft, but if you go buzz a few homes for no reason the FAA will still throw a fine your way. Additionally whirlybirds don't want to operate too low as it substantially reduces their emergency landing sites even with auto-rotation.

> On the flip side, there are clearly some quadcopter pilots that fly above the 400' limit, even though the FAA has asked operators not to.

Which is fine, if they're below 1000 feet, and aircraft aren't allowed to fly below 1000 feet then there is no issue.

The only issue with drones is when they exceed 1000 feet, or are in controlled airspace (airports, events, emergency situations, etc).

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