171–180 of 197 posts
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> Each of these jobs probably have a particular set of paths that lead to them. I think the commonality is that at the minimum you need to be able to read English at a proficient level, which weeds out the vast majority of American adults.
The vast majority of adults can't read English well? Let's get real here, that's not even close to the truth.
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It all depends... The question boils down to "how much of a shit job are you willing to go after"? There's always a few programming jobs that no one wants because the pay is awful and the company/job description is crap (PHP web apps for 28k/year? ROFLOL). But then they act as proof of employability for slightly better companies and soon you have 12-24 months of "professional" experience and landing interviews at OK…
PHP is paradise compared to the bed of glass and nails some of us 30-somethings had to drag ourselves through man. Lotus Domino. Never Forget.
"client-server" VB6 apps with an MDB file on a NT4 fileshare passing as server is the lowest I've been lucky to have to deal with. Boy that was crap. That and actual cgi-bin script actually written in perl.
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The article arguments for the very opposite. Did your bias prevented you from reading it till the end before commenting? :)
No. The last paragraph of the article: "The majority of the population can not learn to code at all, no matter how much training they receive. I doubt very much if the plethora of quick learn-to-code courses will have any impact at all on the skills shortage, or the problem of unskilled low pay and unemployment. Let’s stop pretending that there are artificial barriers to entry and accept that the main barrier to anyo…
Sometimes, you either have the capabilities to do the job, or you don't.
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There was a paper published about exactly this, summarized by Jeff Atwood [1]. Essentially, there appears, according to the authors, that there is a mindset that people either have or don't have that allows them to understand the very basics (variable assignment, iteration, etc) before they've had any training at all. Students were tested before 3 weeks of education and after and the results were essentially the same…
I really wish people wouldn't link to ten-year-old drafts without checking on current research. The article Atwood links to makes some totally bombastic claims - here's the retraction and clarification of them: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/papers/camel_hu... While a consistent mental model for things like assignment is a good sign, not initially having it doesn't mean you can't learn how to code. Late…
That's interesting. Its interesting to me, because -- while I may or may have developed the aptitude independently later without this -- I actually spent a lot of time when I was first learning programming, in elementary/middle school in the 1980s, pair programming (though, you know, the name wouldn't be coined for quite a while) with my dad.
> I wish I could understand why so many programmers are eager to assume their skills are due to something 'innate'.
One reason might be because if anyone could learn it, programmers wouldn't be able to view themselves as special.
Another might be because if people realized everyone could learn it, programmer salaries would fall from increased competition, so programmers have financial self-interest in people not believing that most people can learn to code if they try, especially if its true.
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>There's no way I could work as a professional software developer, I'll hire you.
Here's what made me say that (and it wasn't humblebragging): I've worked in a marketing role in a software company and realize that I don't have the understanding of how to contribute in a meaningful way to a team-based professional programming project. My workflow isn't ideal: bang my head against a wall, Google my way out, copy/paste/edit until things work, and move on. Because I'm generally on a mission to get som…
I understand and almost echo that sentiment myself, but bear in mind that it may be an instance of impostor syndrome :).
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PHP is paradise compared to the bed of glass and nails some of us 30-somethings had to drag ourselves through man. Lotus Domino. Never Forget.
I was lucky enough to start on the sys admin side and in smaller companies and just after the major switch away from Novell to NT4. I skipped a lot of the early/mid 90s stalwarths. "client-server" VB6 apps with an MDB file on a NT4 fileshare passing as server is the lowest I've been lucky to have to deal with. Boy that was crap. That and actual cgi-bin script actually written in perl.
I suspect it broke me as a programmer for years!
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I really wish people wouldn't link to ten-year-old drafts without checking on current research. The article Atwood links to makes some totally bombastic claims - here's the retraction and clarification of them: http://www.eis.mdx.ac.uk/staffpages/r_bornat/papers/camel_hu... While a consistent mental model for things like assignment is a good sign, not initially having it doesn't mean you can't learn how to code. Late…
> Lately, researchers have found that certain pedagogical techniques (especially pair programming) are pretty effective at overcoming these deficiencies. That's interesting. Its interesting to me, because -- while I may or may have developed the aptitude independently later without this -- I actually spent a lot of time when I was first learning programming, in elementary/middle school in the 1980s, pair programming…
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> Lately, researchers have found that certain pedagogical techniques (especially pair programming) are pretty effective at overcoming these deficiencies. That's interesting. Its interesting to me, because -- while I may or may have developed the aptitude independently later without this -- I actually spent a lot of time when I was first learning programming, in elementary/middle school in the 1980s, pair programming…
Everybody can learn plumbing too. Doesn't mean the prices are going to fall. Programming can be very fiddly, and most people hate that. I think our jobs are safe.
Well, no, because "everyone can learning plumbing" is pretty widely accepted (and has been for quite some time), so the effect of that belief being accepted is already reflected in the current market price. (OTOH, the price is lower than it would be if it were widespread belief that becoming even modestly competent at plumbing required unusual innate gifts that most people lacked, and that attempting to learn plumbing was a complete waste of time for people lacking those gifts.)
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Perhaps we need to stress a bit more practicality in CS curriculum? No, we need to stop telling people who want a career in web development to get a degree in Computer Science. And universities should stop convincing people who really want to be software engineers to study computer science. If you want to work as a structural engineer you'll probably get a degree in structural or mechanical engineering. You don't get…
> No, we need to stop telling people who want a career in web development to get a degree in Computer Science. Also agree, but we tell people to do it because employers ask for it. I guess it's a cycle, but someone's gotta stop it one day.
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Err, yeah, you could work as a professional programmer if you wanted to. You can code. The whole point the article is trying to get across is that a lot of people are simply unable to learn how to code. You've learnt. You CAN become a professional. You just don't realize it. The step you've taken is the hard one. In fact, there's another big dirty secret in programming. A load of professional programmers aren't able…
There's a dirtier secret: A load of professional programmers are not able to make new programs. A load of professional programmers are not able to modify existing programs. And a load of professional programmers are not able to finish programs. Almost no-one is good at all 3. Most are extremely bad at least one of these. Lots of people who are "good" at making new programs are actually pretty bad.
I'm bad at this. I'm not sure if this is caused by a lack of programming skills or a lack of project management skills.