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PHP 7 Released

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Re: PHP 7 Released

#171

Post by apocalyptic0n3 »

captn3m0 wrote: post #115
venomsnake wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And every php developer would wish that suddenly all php in the world upgrades to v7. We are years away from 7 having a big penetration in the ecosystem. And years more till it hits enterprise.

I interview a lot of php-devs, and a very large proportion of PHP shops are still on 5.4 or earlier (which is all EOL). Very often they are not at all aware of the new features in 5.5 and later. CodeIgniter is still popular and a lot of developers have no clue about namespaces and composer usage. It will really take a _long while_ before php7 becomes commonplace.

Yeah, this is where we're at. We have a ton of old servers running hundreds of sites, some of them up to 10 years old. It's just not feasible for us to upgrade those servers unless there is a massive security issue. So we have a lot of servers running 5.3 and 5.4.

We currently run on Debian stable and don't upgrade any packages beyond what Debian is supporting. In all likelihood, we won't be using PHP 7 until the next major Debian release, which I believe is scheduled for April 2017.

Regardless, we still have to support clients that are running older instances of PHP on their GoDaddy shared hosting. If it's not EOL, we can't justify not allowing them to use it so we're stuck with 5.5+ for the time being.

Re: PHP 7 Released

#172

Post by Zelphyr »

aarondf wrote: post #155
nnq wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I urged him to switch to a sane framework like Laravel ...why didn't you taught him about PDO, so he can start with something more universal, not tied to one particular framework that happens to be popular nowadays?! Then he can learn whichever OR/DM or DAL he might like need (Eloquent, Doctrine, Redbean, IdiORM/Paris etc.), and also be able to pop the hood and debug it when needed. I never get it why so many other…

> instead of playing to the language's advantages and using light-weight tools and libraries that would allow them to move faster. Depending on what you mean by "move faster", I may have to disagree. Besides a one-off script, I can't envision a scenario where using "tools and libraries" would allow you to move faster than using Laravel. Laravel comes with an unbelievable amount of stuff done for you, right out of the…

Until you hit something the framework wasn't design to do (which happens 100% of the time in my experience). Now you're working for the framework instead of it working for you.

This guy said it better: “Frameworks invert control. They control the lifecycle of the app, and give you entry points where your code runs. You’re still responsible for the final code, but you’re not in control.” https://aerotwist.com/blog/the-cost-of-frameworks/

Re: PHP 7 Released

#173

Post by brightball »

aarondf wrote: post #155
nnq wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I urged him to switch to a sane framework like Laravel ...why didn't you taught him about PDO, so he can start with something more universal, not tied to one particular framework that happens to be popular nowadays?! Then he can learn whichever OR/DM or DAL he might like need (Eloquent, Doctrine, Redbean, IdiORM/Paris etc.), and also be able to pop the hood and debug it when needed. I never get it why so many other…

> instead of playing to the language's advantages and using light-weight tools and libraries that would allow them to move faster. Depending on what you mean by "move faster", I may have to disagree. Besides a one-off script, I can't envision a scenario where using "tools and libraries" would allow you to move faster than using Laravel. Laravel comes with an unbelievable amount of stuff done for you, right out of the…

Laravel is an excellent Rails clone, but the entire problem with Laravel is that it's a PHP framework.

I've been a PHP dev for 15 years and the biggest issue with frameworks in PHP is PHP itself. A request comes in, the PHP process loads up everything, executes the request and tears down...on every single request.

In just about every other language, the application boots up, loads everything into RAM and each individual request doesn't have to reload things.

There are definitely trade offs here. You can have a 1 TB hard drive filled up with PHP code on a 256mb of RAM server and everything is still going to run fine. There's a lot of value in that and most people who are PHP averse seem to be turning to Lamba from AWS to fill that gap. PHP scales down better than just about anything else out there.

When the other commenter mentioned doing lightweight scripts with PDO that's essentially what he meant though. Lightweight avoids reloading libraries and PHP is lightning fast when you do that.

A lot of progress has been made over the years to help PHP handle frameworks better, but there's a big reason why PHP grinds to a halt with heavy frameworks and that's it. Check out the techempower framework benchmarks.

Using PHP like Go, however, and just pulling in what you need can be extremely powerful.

Here's an entire presentation on it that I gave to a local PHP group. http://www.slideshare.net/barrywjones3/whats-the-right-php

FWIW, I do really like Laravel and even recommend it if you HAVE to use a big framework.

Re: PHP 7 Released

#174

Post by jacquesm »

untog wrote: post #160
jacquesm wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To be honest, I like IKEA, and I don't think it suck Ikea sucks. Quite a bit of the furniture is just painted cardboard, the quality is absolutely horrible. It looks ok but 'under the hood' it is terrible. It is throwaway furniture, the very opposite of sustainable.

Weird, I've been using my IKEA bed, wardrobe and drawers for many years now and they're fine. Maybe I'm just happy to make do with convenience - like many PHP developers.

The intersection of the sets 'Ikea furniture owners', 'People that think Ikea furniture is low quality' and 'PHP programmers' isn't empty.

Re: PHP 7 Released

#175

Post by RadioactiveMan »

Scarblac wrote: post #59
trm42 wrote: post #7

PHP 7 makes life a lot better for PHP devs in many ways but one awesome thing is it obsoletes bunch of out-of-date tutorials by finally removing the old Mysql extension \o/ http://php.net/manual/en/migration70.removed-exts-sapis.php I actually met a young aspiring web developer who still learned DB-access with mysql_* functions. I urged him to switch to a sane framework like Laravel. Oh boy he was happy in a month an…

I am an experienced programmer but I've only touched PHP a few times, years ago. What are the best books or tutorials to get an overview of modern PHP?

I thought Modern PHP by Josh Lockhart, also the author of PHP the Right Way, was a helpful overview.

http://shop.oreilly.com/product/0636920033868.do

Re: PHP 7 Released

#176

Post by eropple »

Zelphyr wrote: post #172
aarondf wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of playing to the language's advantages and using light-weight tools and libraries that would allow them to move faster. Depending on what you mean by "move faster", I may have to disagree. Besides a one-off script, I can't envision a scenario where using "tools and libraries" would allow you to move faster than using Laravel. Laravel comes with an unbelievable amount of stuff done for you, right out of the…

Until you hit something the framework wasn't design to do (which happens 100% of the time in my experience). Now you're working for the framework instead of it working for you. This guy said it better: “Frameworks invert control. They control the lifecycle of the app, and give you entry points where your code runs. You’re still responsible for the final code, but you’re not in control.” https://aerotwist.com/blog/the…

Depends on the framework. Dropwizard, for example, is built upon Jersey, which is designed to be modular and to allow components, even in core, to be extended or replaced (because they're nothing-special Java objects, all the way down). You have to understand the framework, but it's generally safe to assume that the intentions of the framework are good and that by adhering to the contracts between objects you'll get the result you want.

Re: PHP 7 Released

#177

Post by adrianmacneil »

brightball wrote: post #173
aarondf wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of playing to the language's advantages and using light-weight tools and libraries that would allow them to move faster. Depending on what you mean by "move faster", I may have to disagree. Besides a one-off script, I can't envision a scenario where using "tools and libraries" would allow you to move faster than using Laravel. Laravel comes with an unbelievable amount of stuff done for you, right out of the…

Laravel is an excellent Rails clone, but the entire problem with Laravel is that it's a PHP framework. I've been a PHP dev for 15 years and the biggest issue with frameworks in PHP is PHP itself. A request comes in, the PHP process loads up everything, executes the request and tears down...on every single request. In just about every other language, the application boots up, loads everything into RAM and each individ…

Pretty sure newer versions of php have an opcode cache built in, so they don't need to load everything on every request now?

Re: PHP 7 Released

#178

Post by blowski »

dragonwriter wrote: post #145
porker wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is controversial about AR? How it represents rows as objects. How it makes people think about them. How it conflates modelling the domain with database structure. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=activerecord+vs+datamapper

> How it represents rows as objects. A row is the DBMS's model of an entity in the domain. An object is an object-oriented programming language's model of an entity in the domain. Representing domain entities as objects in the PL that are backed by rows in a database relation (view or table), which is what the Active Record pattern does, is reasonable. > How it conflates modelling the domain with database structure.…

Perhaps the problem the OP is referring to is code like

    foreach($things as $thing) {
      $thing->setValue('new value');
    }
and then looping through 10000 rows to do that, instead of using an UPDATE query.

I think the best criticism of ActiveRecord (and ORM in general) is performance, but it's only relevant on medium-to-large websites. It is a fantastic design pattern for prototyping, and good enough for production on small-to-medium websites as long as there are caching layers above it.

Re: PHP 7 Released

#179

Post by brightball »

adrianmacneil wrote: post #177
brightball wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laravel is an excellent Rails clone, but the entire problem with Laravel is that it's a PHP framework. I've been a PHP dev for 15 years and the biggest issue with frameworks in PHP is PHP itself. A request comes in, the PHP process loads up everything, executes the request and tears down...on every single request. In just about every other language, the application boots up, loads everything into RAM and each individ…

Pretty sure newer versions of php have an opcode cache built in, so they don't need to load everything on every request now?

Unless something has changed, that's the equivalent of keeping the files in RAM but it doesn't maintain state and routes, etc so it still has to reprocess.

Re: PHP 7 Released

#180

Post by noir_lord »

plug wrote: post #124
sneak wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://eev.ee/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design/

The first thing I did when I arrived on this page was do a page search for 'fractal'. There's always one.

Yep, I generally take it as a "I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll just post this blog post".

Every reddit post about PHP outside /r/php ends up with it as well.

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