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Scrum is the new waterfall

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Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#171

Post by dustinleblanc »

kuschku wrote: post #124
cechner wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ill reply to the root of all your comments, but this comment by you below sums up the problem: > If your software has clear requirements, has a point when it is done, and only requires minimum maintenance after that, you aren’t writing agile. This is simply not true. All 'agile' projects Ive worked on have had a complete-as-possbile analysis phase where we figured out the scope and the domain up front. This is not an…

The issue is that there are projects where changing your API is impossible, which means that using Agile is often a hopeless concept. Because if huge insurances already depend on your API, no matter how Agile you are, you can’t change it anymore. And there are many cases where your code will be frozen at one point. Even if the requirements change. Especially for Internet-of-Thing devices this can be very problematic,…

If you are writing integrations for API features that are fantasy at this point, you are digging your own grave. You have extended your risk and when you find out six months from now that you bet the farm on a useless feature, oh well; thems the breaks.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#172

Post by kuschku »

dustinleblanc wrote: post #169
kuschku wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Absolutely. This has no relation to the development process used to build those systems. Yes, it has. Agile encourages people adding features without previously planning every single interaction of the feature with every other piece of software. Which means, Agile encourages writing code without being sure it will interact safely with other parts.

No, it doesn't, you are making things up. There are plenty of agile/scrum teams who run continuous integration that won't allow code that breaks a build to even be in production. They write integration tests and acceptance tests and all of it is done with sprints and iteration. Agile does no encouraging of adding features. It simply gives you the freedom to choose which ones get implemented based on the current knowl…

Sure?

Because last I remember, Google is constantly shipping their Android Compat Libs with constant integration issues.

You’d assume that at least Google gets it right.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#173

Post by kuschku »

dustinleblanc wrote: post #170
kuschku wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue here are systems like Internet-of-Things devices. 90% of the people buying your smart washing machine will never ever update it. Never. So change is non-existent in the code you are delivering. And we’re going to have more and more IoT devices. Already today we’re seeing Smart TVs with preinstalled apps for online streaming sites that don’t even exist anymore. We have to be able to separate those pieces of…

Absolutely none of this matters to agile vs. waterfall. You can accomplish this with agile development: 1. People meet at the beginning of the project and say "heres what we think our washing machine needs" 2. They create a backlog based on those features 3. They start working and implement some features. 4. They find out they don't actually need the washing machine to wink and smile and say its done in a fancy briti…

That’s not the definition of "agile" I meant here.

The definition of "agile" is what actually happens in reality: You depend on an API from Google, and they, thanks to their so "agile" team, constantly drop or add features every few weeks, constantly move everything around, and then drop support for the API a few months later completely.

And they argue that it’s "necessary to have moving open standards for everything to be able to react to change".

That’s pretty "agile". Change! Change! Change! Who cares about consistency?

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#174

Post by kuschku »

douche wrote: post #165
kuschku wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that no one is going to do firmware updates on their smart washing machine. Your software can’t be updated. You have one try to do it right. It’s what next to all of the modern startups don’t get right. They build fancy software, but then in a few years your smart house doesn’t work anymore because the services it connected to have changed APIs and the house itself encountered a few bugs? The lifetime…

You are buying much higher quality washing machines than I am, apparently. If you get 8-10 years out of most brands now, you're doing quite well. Planned obsolescence is just the best...

Mostly quality Miele machines. They have 10 years warranty from the manufacturer, so most actually survive for 20 years. Not what they used to make – they used to survive a lifetime – but it’s okay.

Same with stoves or fridges.

We already see how hard it is to keep mobile devices updated. Android is the nightmare example, but even Apple drops devices after 4 years. In 20 years, your smart fridge will have tons of malware on it if it’s connected to the internet. If it isn’t connected, you won’t be able to get updates, so the software has to be perfect.

And the point we made in Uni was that agile is suited for situations where your requirements change after deploying. In all other cases you can do waterfall – provided you actually find out what you’re supposed to do – better.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#175

Post by maxxxxx »

kuschku wrote: post #173
dustinleblanc wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely none of this matters to agile vs. waterfall. You can accomplish this with agile development: 1. People meet at the beginning of the project and say "heres what we think our washing machine needs" 2. They create a backlog based on those features 3. They start working and implement some features. 4. They find out they don't actually need the washing machine to wink and smile and say its done in a fancy briti…

That’s not the definition of "agile" I meant here. The definition of "agile" is what actually happens in reality: You depend on an API from Google, and they, thanks to their so "agile" team, constantly drop or add features every few weeks, constantly move everything around, and then drop support for the API a few months later completely. And they argue that it’s "necessary to have moving open standards for everything…

Maybe it's "agile" but certainly not "Agile".

You seem to have a total misunderstanding of how Agile methods work in practice. Not saying that Scrum is great but the points you are raising make no sense in this context.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#176

Post by douche »

kuschku wrote: post #174
douche wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are buying much higher quality washing machines than I am, apparently. If you get 8-10 years out of most brands now, you're doing quite well. Planned obsolescence is just the best...

Mostly quality Miele machines. They have 10 years warranty from the manufacturer, so most actually survive for 20 years. Not what they used to make – they used to survive a lifetime – but it’s okay. Same with stoves or fridges. We already see how hard it is to keep mobile devices updated. Android is the nightmare example, but even Apple drops devices after 4 years. In 20 years, your smart fridge will have tons of mal…

I'll have to look into that brand the next time I'm in the market - I've been hearing a lot about them on here lately.

Personally, I want my appliances 100% electromechanical. I don't really get the whole IoT buzz. Besides simple reliability and repairability, I have no desire to control my stove or washing machine with my phone. I can get up and punch a button.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#177

Post by anon4 »

cechner wrote: post #2

I don't really agree with this - Scrum isn't really easy to do but in many situations it is the simplest approach to take. If you need to monitor your progress in 'real' terms (i.e., whats actually completed) Scrum is pretty much the minimum ceremony you can get away with in my experience. If you don't need to do that, say if you don't have a deadline that you need to know you wont hit ASAP, then Scrum is likely not…

I think we can just summarize the entire thing now and forever as "Management leading developer meetings always leads to tears".

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#178

Post by kuschku »

douche wrote: post #176
kuschku wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly quality Miele machines. They have 10 years warranty from the manufacturer, so most actually survive for 20 years. Not what they used to make – they used to survive a lifetime – but it’s okay. Same with stoves or fridges. We already see how hard it is to keep mobile devices updated. Android is the nightmare example, but even Apple drops devices after 4 years. In 20 years, your smart fridge will have tons of mal…

I'll have to look into that brand the next time I'm in the market - I've been hearing a lot about them on here lately. Personally, I want my appliances 100% electromechanical. I don't really get the whole IoT buzz. Besides simple reliability and repairability, I have no desire to control my stove or washing machine with my phone. I can get up and punch a button.

Then you’re the perfect customer for the German market! Next to no modern hip bullshit. Next to no IoT, next to no "Agile", or "moving target", or "constant updates", instead technology like it used to be – buy once, use a lifetime.

Warning: Expensive. Really expensive. Their washing machines start at 1300 USD.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#179

Post by kelrien »

kuschku wrote: post #72
parasubvert wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Agile works for web services, for small apps, but that’s it. Anything larger, or more complex, needs planning, thought, and design. And often needs refactoring." I hope you discover the flaw in this logic sooner in your career than later. I'll start with a hint: You are misreading the Agile manifesto. All successful teams and companies - Agile or not - do planning, thought, design. And the Agile community (which cam…

And I can tell you that even some cloud software, like the Elektronische Gesundheitskarte was developed with Waterfall. Often you have to design software interacting with dozens of other entities, all who are going to write software interacting with your system. And your system is supposed to be able to run for years or decades with minimal maintenance. Agile is far more suited for web apps, or small mobile apps, whi…

Actually that is incorrect. The Elektronische Gesundheitskarte was developed with "V-Modell". V-Modell, now V-Modell XT is the mandatory process for projects run by the german government.

Re: Scrum is the new waterfall

#180

Post by collyw »

dustinleblanc wrote: post #167
kuschku wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not required, but the average Agile project ends up with update support like Android, and with a complexity like the Facebook Android App (which had to rewrite dalvik at runtime because they didn't plan about the limits of the VM they were working on). Having a plan is the first step to perfection, they say.

Agile has never said you don't plan, you just don't fully trust plans made without all the information. You make your plan, and its great as far as up front plans go, but it WILL be wrong in some ways, and you will update it. Who ever said you don't plan in agile and scrum? Where does the magical backlog you start the project with come from? The point is not to pretend you know things that you don't. You have a sever…

Agiles definition seems to get redefined every time a discussion like this appears on HN.
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