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Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

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Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#171

Post by pyre »

Psyonic wrote: post #96
pyre wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's ignoring the point that 'rule of law' didn't exist in the Americas. Maybe private property and rule of law existed in Europe and made for a better society there, but the conquistadors that came to the Americas acted like the rule of law was "whatever I want to do, I get to do." Ideas like private property don't excuse things like slavery and murder. You can't say, "I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look…

"I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look! There are people living on it already. I guess I get to enslave, rape, torture them." Actually, you can say EXACTLY that. The very idea of private property is founded on that principle. When whoever it was originally decided some plot of land belonged to him, that's precisely what he said. All I would add to that statement is the clause, "Or they can get the hell out.…

So you're claiming that if someone decides to enter my house, I can legally torture, rape and/or kill them?

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#172

Post by whimsy »

aristus wrote: post #12
mattmaroon wrote: post #4

"But in this case the metaphor is conscious and precise: this is the story of European engagement with the native peoples of the Americas." One planetary race driving another into extinction is a universal, cookie-cutter sci-fi plot device. See Independence Day or Ender's Game. I suppose this was the only one where the victims had some sort of aboriginal-sounding accent, but I wouldn't take it as social commentary.

They also had badass arrows. But on a world where the flying things are all glowing and lizardy, where did they get the feathers for the arrows?

Didn't those hammerhead things have feathers on their heads?

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#173

Post by whimsy »

rainyday wrote: post #25
bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

While there's no magic wand for the past, you can affect the future. We're in the midst of a great extinction event, combined with anthropogenic climate change, various unsustainable practices. A lot of life--human, nonhuman--is going to die, badly, and for a long time, if people waste their time on junk like Avatar instead of dealing with this mess.

Hopefully you have heard of lesswrong.com by this point in time.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#174

Post by whimsy »

bokonist wrote: post #3

Question to HN readers who are sympathetic with this article: If you could wave a magic wand and "undo" all that was done, would you do so? So imagine all those who perished in the 1500's would be revived from the dead and restored to their ancestral lands, all those living in the Americas now would be sent back to England, Ireland, China, etc, with a one way ticket and $10K in cash to start a new life. Would you wav…

I'm very curious what the modern age would look like if Europe hadn't found the Americas until the 1600s, or the 1800s... what would modern technology look like? Modern culture? Would the Americas eventually have sufficient technology (primarily medicine) such that they would be able to resist invasion? How long would that take?

There is, of course, no way of knowing, but if American civilizations had thrived instead, and continued to be "peaceful and democratic" as the article put it, it seems somewhat plausible that we wouldn't be running into these "Tragedy of the Commons" problems... or, at least, that we would be making good progress on mitigating them.

I'm pretty sure that's wishful thinking, though. I'm still interested in what sort of cultures and technologies would have come out of that seed.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#175

Post by billswift »

Tichy wrote: post #139
armandososa wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchy is the only logical and natural state of being, every other attempt to bring order to chaos is unnatural. Imho.

Some societal constructs seem to have benefits, though. I am happy that I don't have to carry a gun at all times and don't have to fight for my territory and my life every day.

There's nothing inherently wrong with society - it's government, and modern societies' love affairs with them, that suck.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#176

Post by tfh »

blinks wrote: post #167
tfh wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a victim does not cleanse your sins. I'm sure that the Natives Americans were not perfect human beings. No one is. Being killed does not make the Natives good but the Europeans bad. I hope for you that you agree with that last sentence.

People aren't "good" or "bad." Actions are.

Agreed.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#177

Post by outotrai »

pyre wrote: post #171
Psyonic wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look! There are people living on it already. I guess I get to enslave, rape, torture them." Actually, you can say EXACTLY that. The very idea of private property is founded on that principle. When whoever it was originally decided some plot of land belonged to him, that's precisely what he said. All I would add to that statement is the clause, "Or they can get the hell out.…

So you're claiming that if someone decides to enter my house, I can legally torture, rape and/or kill them?

I think he's saying that if someone came into your house and said it was theirs, and had the ability to enforce that, it wouldn't be your house anymore. No, you can't ethically say "I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look! There are people living on it already. I guess I get to enslave, rape, torture them." But if ethics are not of any concern to you, then you can certainly say it and do it, and the land will then be yours.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#178

Post by rainyday »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #46
rainyday wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there's no magic wand for the past, you can affect the future. We're in the midst of a great extinction event, combined with anthropogenic climate change, various unsustainable practices. A lot of life--human, nonhuman--is going to die, badly, and for a long time, if people waste their time on junk like Avatar instead of dealing with this mess.

.... and you're posting on hacker news when you could be "dealing with that mess".

A valid criticism.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#179

Post by rainyday »

whimsy wrote: post #173
rainyday wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While there's no magic wand for the past, you can affect the future. We're in the midst of a great extinction event, combined with anthropogenic climate change, various unsustainable practices. A lot of life--human, nonhuman--is going to die, badly, and for a long time, if people waste their time on junk like Avatar instead of dealing with this mess.

Hopefully you have heard of lesswrong.com by this point in time.

First time. Thanks for the reference.

Re: Avatar: The Holocaust We Will Not See

#180

Post by Psyonic »

outotrai wrote: post #177
pyre wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're claiming that if someone decides to enter my house, I can legally torture, rape and/or kill them?

I think he's saying that if someone came into your house and said it was theirs, and had the ability to enforce that, it wouldn't be your house anymore. No, you can't ethically say "I claim this piece of land for my own. Oh, look! There are people living on it already. I guess I get to enslave, rape, torture them." But if ethics are not of any concern to you, then you can certainly say it and do it, and the land will…

Thanks outotrai. Couldn't have said it better myself.
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