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Eve Version 0

chris-granger.com

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Re: Eve Version 0

#171

Post by dang »

crisnoble wrote: post #159
dang wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've known many Excel power users who are technically minded and experts in their domains, but nevertheless are not programmers. (Edit: obviously they're programmers in the sense that they make the computer compute things, but not via a general-purpose language.) They have no interest in learning Python or JavaScript or even VBA—it doesn't fit with how they like to think. Instead, they lay out complex calculations in…

The only thing a super complex formula is missing is the notion of a for loop. In lieu of that, I used to pull a column down as many times as the loop needed to run. Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript.

Some spreadsheet users discover programming and take to it, which is great. Others have the opposite reaction—writing scripts doesn't fit how they like to think or work. It sounds like you are the first kind of user; the ones I was thinking of are the latter.

Re: Eve Version 0

#172

Post by wingerlang »

agumonkey wrote: post #162
Fomite wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a really helpful perspective. For example, I've started referring to myself as a "user" of Python rather than a programmer.

Care to explain a bit your choice of word ? Funny how I often heard about the user / programmer dichotomy. Always just felt like a user in the know.

Seems like it has to do with the end result. If your goal is to make an app, then you have to program that app. So you are a programmer.

If you want something quick, maybe throwaway-able, you pick something to use for that, and you are a user.

You could build a program with that throwaway script without being a programmer though. Just like I can build a house without being a carpenter.

That's my interpretation though.

Re: Eve Version 0

#173

Post by BjoernKW »

IanCal wrote: post #73
BjoernKW wrote: post #59

The way I understand it Eve is aiming to be both a better Excel and a better Lotus Notes. I think its creators are still on to something. These tools are often ridiculed and their use by non-programmers for creating business tools is often frowned upon but they allow business users to quickly create flexible, makeshift solutions to their problems. Not every business problem needs to be solved by a complex, cumbersome…

> These tools are often ridiculed and their use by non-programmers for creating business tools is often frowned upon but they allow business users to quickly create flexible, makeshift solutions to their problems. They do, which is both great and terrible. They're powerful and easy to get started with, but therein lies the danger. When used to quickly whip something up they're great, but when those things grow or end…

> but when those things grow or end up being relied upon they're no better than the hack that the CEOs kids friend who is 'good with computers' produces.

Ronald Reagan allegedly once said "Nothing lasts longer than a temporary government program.". The same applies to throw-away code and 'prototypes'.

> Perhaps a spreadsheet that allows some form of testing?

For complex, interrelated calculations this definitely makes a lot of sense. From my experience the most common problems with Excel sheets are collaborative editing and version control, though. I'm not sure if more recent versions of Excel and Office 365 in particular solve these issues. Google Spreadsheets sort of does (the UX is lacking, though) but then again hardly any company will even consider putting sensitive data in the cloud and rightfully so.

Even convincing users to use complementary tools that improve Excel-based processes might be difficult because due to prolonged, habitual (ab)use many users don't even see the problems that arise anymore ("Why change this? It's always been done this way."). Implementing such tools in a way they're accepted by users is hard. You can't just add Git or some acceptance testing framework to the flow and expect users to be happy with that. It'd have to be something that seems very intuitive and natural to use for the average Excel users.

A clear path from spreadsheet to application would be an interesting approach, too. Spreadsheets are a conglomeration of model, view and controller logic. If you could somehow separate those semi-automatically and generate a boilerplate application from that this might by a viable approach.

Re: Eve Version 0

#175

Post by CmonDev »

gohrt wrote: post #158
dominotw wrote: post #53

Is anyone using LightTable on a daily basis? I sponsored the kickstarter but never really followed up on what happened to it.

Looks like the authoer coded himself into a corner and gave up, and is trying this instead. Not inspiring faith in the prospects for Eve.

Yeah, but this time he borrowed money from people who cannot be duped.

Re: Eve Version 0

#176

Post by mhw »

mindcrime wrote: post #140
icebraining wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We use Pentaho Kettle for those kinds of transformations. It's FOSS, and connects to a whole bunch of programs and formats. It's a graphical tool - you drag-n-drop modules, then configure and connect them, though it can also run scripts (it has JavaScript, Java, Bash and Ruby support, besides SQL, of course) - but after configuring the transformation/job, you can also run it on the terminal, which is useful for perio…

I've been doing a lot of work with Kettle as well, and it is a handy tool (albeit with a few warts). What I think would be handy for use in an organizational setting, where "business users" might want to use some of the transforms, would be a way to publish transforms somewhere, making them discoverable and accessible to others. I don't want to make it sound like I'm talking about UDDI or anything (although, thinking…

Have a look at Alteryx (http://www.alteryx.com/) - it's pretty close to what you're describing, I think.

Re: Eve Version 0

#178

Post by dgudkov »

mistermann wrote: post #166
dgudkov wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at my EasyMorph ( http://easymorph.com ). It's a visual replacement for scripted data transformations. People use it to replace SAS and Visual Basic scripting. It also allows creating reusable modules. Contact me at @easymorph.com if it looks interesting to you.

Does this have an API that can be called from .Net? I'm really liking some of the things Microsoft is doing with Power Query, but I don't like how it is (afaik) only callable from Excel or PowerBI online. I'd like similar capability, but more open, and could be called via scripting, from SQLCLR, etc. Another big hitch: Microsoft has not published proper API's for manipulating PowerPivot models in Excel, and I don't t…

Currently EasyMorph supports integration through command line only. We do not plan having API for the desktop client, but we will definitely make EasyMorph Server API if we reach that point.

Re: Eve Version 0

#179

Post by crisnoble »

mistermann wrote: post #168
crisnoble wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing a super complex formula is missing is the notion of a for loop. In lieu of that, I used to pull a column down as many times as the loop needed to run. Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript.

> Then I discovered macros, then I discovered javascript. Is the javascript comment somehow related to Excel, or had you moved beyond Excel at that point?

I have move beyond Excel, and now I am a web developer. I still have a special place in my heart for overly complex spreadsheets.

Re: Eve Version 0

#180

Post by jaredklewis »

dgreensp wrote: post #14
mkozlows wrote: post #10

So after they didn't exactly revolutionize the IDE with Light Table, and pivoted to revolutionizing programming, they seem to have kind of come around to revolutionizing... groupware? Which at least seems more plausible, as it ought to be possible to make a better groupware application than Lotus Notes. I think the larger implication is: Programming tools are actually pretty good, and the larger process of programmin…

I get the opposite message, which is that programming tools and the process of programming are so bad, it's hard to get a computer to do a simple task for you without tearing your hair out, never mind building a UI. A better IDE (basically a better text editor) doesn't even scratch the surface.

Perhaps, but my intuition is that the bottleneck between most people and programming isn't the tools. It's that programming requires the programmer to conceptualize the problem formally, and then to formally define what he/she wants the computer to do.

We can come up with better and better formal languages and ways for editing these languages (and probably should), but I would guess even a visual formal language, will still pose many of the same difficulties for users that existing formal languages do.

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