Any ethical framework in which it is unethical to take minimal steps to protect myself from psychological manipulation is an ethical framework that I have no interest in adhering to.
The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
171–180 of 249 posts
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If these costs are being borne evenly, then it's complete societal waste. That doesn't make sense. You are saying because User reads Content, Advertiser pays Content, and User pays Advertiser, that the middle step of Advertiser paying Content is unnecessary, because User could pay Content. Simple counterexample: I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. But I might see an ad for a new device that I lik…
In your example, there are two possibilities: either you did want and need to buy the product before the advertisement or you didn't. In the first case, the advertisement was wasteful: the company that sold you the product has unnecessarily spent money, which goes to the product price. And this is not a small amount: big consumer companies spend billions on advertisement space/time alone, an amount comparable to thei…
For crying out loud. There's also a third option: you're researching similar products because of an existing need, and you haven't heard of $ADVERTISING_COMPANY before you saw the ad, and they turn out to have a better product than competitors.
> You were hacked and exploited
Yeah, that's not what either of those words mean.
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#173The article is a promotion for the author's ad service: "For publishers who want to remain ad-supported, ethically and tastefully presented native advertising, such as sponsored posts in feeds and our community’s podcast ads, has proven to be more effective, more profitable, and less user-hostile by far compared to awful network embeds."
"Sponsored posts" are in some ways worse than pop-ups. We can block pop-ups. Also note that "sponsored posts" that look like regular posts violate the FTC's rule that ads must be distinguished from non-ad content. [1]
[1] https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/press-re...
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#174like OP, online ads (partially) put food on my table. but that's where the similarities stop: whereas OP mentions he's "never been tempted to run ad-blocking software before," i've blocked ads for years. and i don't just block ads myself, i advise my friends and family to block them, too.
what most of my friends and family don't know is web ads represent, arguably, one of the most dangerous aspects of modern web UX. ad servers exploited with 0-day vulns are one thing, but what worry me (and what i despise) most are dodgy ads that try to mimic/replicate some aspect of the publisher's web UI, and ads that fraudulently misrepresent other websites (e.g. fake facebook notification ads). many of these ads run on the biggest networks.
so instead of repeatedly telling my grandma that the buttons on certain sites aren't actually buttons for those sites, or that the banner with the facebook friend request isn't actually from facebook, i just install adblock on her browser.
i'm well aware of the irony and the double-standard. but safety first, right?
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#175The bigger issue, IMHO, is quality of advertising rather than its presence. People pay $15 for a theater ticket and sit through 10 minutes of ads, buy Vogue magazine and have 30%+ of pages be ads, buy The New York Times and be hit with ads all over the place, watch the Superbowl specifically to see the ads, and more. What people seem to really want are better ads or even ads that are entertainment or content in their own right (which is why native advertising has taken off).
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#176What I really can't understand, that permeates this whole discussion, is plenty of people that try to sell the idea that ads let us have content "for free", and that all we have to tolerate is "a little annoyance". It's insane. If companies are buying ad-space, it's because they expect to get more business in return. This means that someone out there is being influenced by said ads, so that if the content cost X to p…
If these costs are not borne evenly, and some people are paying for the consumption of more disciplined people, it's probably contributing to terrible cycles of poverty
C'mon, that isn't the only alternative.
I saw an ad for some slippers on Facebook the other day. They looked nice. I remembered I wanted some slippers for the office. I bought the slippers. I'm happy, the advertiser is happy, Facebook is happy.
Advertising is not always about unhappy or annoying endings, even if sometimes it is. In many cases it works, is ethical, and can even provide a service. In these situations, it's a great way to fund things without forcing end users to pay evenly.
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#177The article is a promotion for the author's ad service: "For publishers who want to remain ad-supported, ethically and tastefully presented native advertising, such as sponsored posts in feeds and our community’s podcast ads, has proven to be more effective, more profitable, and less user-hostile by far compared to awful network embeds." "Sponsored posts" are in some ways worse than pop-ups. We can block pop-ups. Als…
To my knowledge Marco doesn't run an ad service.
> Also note that "sponsored posts" that look like regular posts violate the FTC's rule that ads must be distinguished from non-ad content.
I assume that's why he wrote "ethically and tastefully presented native advertising".
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
See, I really like markets, and I have a problem with phrases like: > I like reading techcrunch, but would never pay for it. Sounds to me a lot like Mitt Romney talking about how his wife has the most important job in the world, but she's essentially his unpaid housewife. Sounds hollow. You are paying for techcrunch, by buying products advertised on it. It would be good for the finances of everyone in society to know…
The problem is that nobody is asking the actual market value of their product. TechCrunch would probably want subscribers to pay north of $5/month. But the actual marketing value (in ad revenue) that they are currently able to extract from a single reader is probably closer to $0.50/year - if that. You solve the micropayment problem and then we can talk about what I'm willing to pay for content.
Mozilla Research put the entire web's advertising revenue at $12.70/month per user[1]. In other words, if they are right we are living with the consequences of advertising for a mere $13/month, $13 dollar they still get from us anyway because it's baked into the prices of the advertised products.
> You solve the micropayment problem
We hackers and technologists here at HN are the "You".
"The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks." – Jeff Hammerbacher, fmr. Manager of Facebook Data Team, founder of Cloudera
As I put it here a couple of weeks ago[2]:
You're putting all the responsibility on the consumer, and none on us, the technologists, the so-called innovators. Where are our innovative powers to come up with alternate busniness models? Where are our backbones to stand up against selling out the internet so that we can get rich quick?
Because that is what the advertising business model is: a get rich quick scheme. Undercut the straight up competitors that charge for their product by fooling consumers into thinking you're offering what the other guy is offering, but for free. Come on, who could turn down that?
The saddest thing about Hacker News is that we all get behind radical things like FOSS (Bill Gates called it un-American) and Snowden, and fight SOPA and NSA violations of privacy, but because too many of our salaries depend on advertising revenue, our cognitive dissonance blinders go up lightning fast.
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Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
In your example, there are two possibilities: either you did want and need to buy the product before the advertisement or you didn't. In the first case, the advertisement was wasteful: the company that sold you the product has unnecessarily spent money, which goes to the product price. And this is not a small amount: big consumer companies spend billions on advertisement space/time alone, an amount comparable to thei…
There's an amusing and relatively new third case where you already have bought the product, but ad servers are dumb and will spam you with ads for that product for months, because your trackers said you searched for that product once. It's wasteful, but in an almost ironic novel way.
For me it was when I started playing Ever Online, for months after I would see endless banner ads for the game screaming "JOIN NOW!".
But I already had joined, and even if I wanted a second account I already know where to go to get it. Ad tech is dumb, real dumb.
Re: The ethics of modern web ad-blocking
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who pays the costs in lost efficiency, lost productivity, lost time etc for readers to wade through ads to get to content? Saying something "lowers costs" without considering ALL costs involved is lazy. Most smart consumers are much less interested in what a company has to say about its own products (embellishment) than about what other people say. So yeah, advertising is pretty terrible.
I made this edit right after I posted it so perhaps you didn't see it, but I added: "Note that even if there is a gain to efficiency because of lower prices, it may be completely offset by the cost of advertising itself (costs being the cost of consumers having to be irked by looking at them and the effort that went into crafting the advertisements)." I think that speaks to your comment about the lost productivity of…
While I have no strong gut feeling as to the total cost/benefit, as someone who has studied marketing and spent quite a bit of time in the sector, I get the impression the cost of advertising itself is very high, perhaps even dwarfing all the rest, comparatively.
And the industry as I've seen it is not particularly efficient/cost-effective or pleasant either. Most of the shoddiest work, unhappiest employees and shittiest bosses/manager that I've encountered were in this sector, by far. The only environment where I got a similar vibe was a bank/insurance company where I worked.