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The Unemployable Programmer

unemployable.pen.io

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Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#161

Post by Khao »

MagicWishMonkey wrote: post #117
mkozlows wrote: post #82

This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing…

Agreed. Sounds like there's something else at play with this guys inability to find work. Maybe he doesn't interview very well?

Some people are terrible at interviews. A few months ago I interviewed a developer in his thirties who had a great looking resume. Worked on lots of big projects in positions of both making decisions about software architecture, technology to use, etc.. and also being a programmer doing the actual work. His resume was really awesome.

When we received him in our interview, we asked him to tell us a bit about his past projects, what he liked, disliked, etc. He didn't talk much and it took us a lot of questions to dig up helpful things.

Then we asked a couple programming related questions and he bombed them all. He couldn't put an algorithm into words, write code that compiles or gives the proper results. Our interview programming questions start very easy and we slowly iterate by adding more constraints that shows if a dev has a deep knowledge of the language and framework.

I have a feeling like this developer was good when he's working alone on a project with no one to talk to. He would have never fit in our company culture and we couldn't evaluate his skills in an interview.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#162

Post by Walkman »

edw519 wrote: post #20

Here's the dirty little secret about "employability" you hardly ever read about in places like HN: It's not about you. It's about your user and what they accomplish with the tools you build for them. It doesn't matter who you are, what you know, what education you have, where you've worked before, what turns you on, or what you think is cool. It only matters what you can do for others. It's really that fucking simple…

THIS! might be THE answer how people works. My life changed significantly when I read this article [1] and realized this is so True. It basically says the same: everybody looks what can you do FOR THEM and that's the main thing that matters.

[1]: http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-yo...

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#163

Post by vonmoltke »

brianwawok wrote: post #96
eitally wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the biggest problems -- speaking as a former technical hiring manager myself -- is that a lot of those "serious companies" have HR policies that explicitly forbid hiring managers from pursuing candidates on their own. They are 100% at the mercy of whatever recruiters find for them, which is an awwwwwwwful, horrendous situation.

Really? All the big corps I worked at had a referral program. Friend want a job? Send his resume to HR. If he got hired, some kind of referral bonus (500 to 5000 depending on job market) Not the same as a direct hire of a friend but I know referrals were assumed better qualified than a random who applied online.

I think that was the point. Referrals has to go through HR, who reserved the right to review and reject the candidate. The hiring manager was not allowed to bypass the HR filter and pursue a candidate they wanted.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#164

Post by DaveWalk »

potatolicious wrote: post #130
branchless wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers should realise that when you come to an interview the interviewer isn't looking to dismiss you because you can't recite Knuth. For the vast majority of jobs they are desperate for you to be competent having just interviewed 5 incompetent people. I've worked as a programmer for 3 very good paying companies over 15 years and none of them could get enough good developers.

Welllllll... Yes and no. Yes, companies are generally desperate for programmers right now, and companies definitely want you to succeed in your interviews. Interviewers on the other hand can be a fickle bunch. I have met many (in fact, maybe even most ) who seem to treat it as some kind of hazing or initiation and act as if the candidate is an opponent to be outsmarted. It doesn't help that in literally none of the c…

I'd say it goes deeper than this: there's a greater emphasis today on the candidate being productive from day one.

I don't know what is causing it (too much exposure to efficient software?), but in many industries hiring managers would rather keep looking for an absolute perfect candidate while leaving behind several that have the skills but need the training.

I have heard the stories about managers spending 100 extra hours looking for a perfect candidate instead of hiring the best available and dedicating even 50 hours to train them to speed.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#165

Post by doktrin »

Mikushi wrote: post #143
MagicWishMonkey wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Sounds like there's something else at play with this guys inability to find work. Maybe he doesn't interview very well?

He's old (early 40'). Taboo subject in the sector.

This is something being glossed over by most of the responses. Age discrimination (or rather, age preconception, if that's a less loaded term) is frighteningly real.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#166

Post by mkozlows »

drzaiusapelord wrote: post #151
vonmoltke wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

Agreed, sometimes people aren't aware that HN is its own little echo chamber. I was talking to a recruiter recently for a managerial job and somehow got onto the topic of hiring. I asked him what's the hardest jobs for him to fill right now. He told me he's dying for entry level .NET/ASP and Java developers. Corporations have built their castles on these technologies, not FOSS/Mobile and need staff. Degrees were an i…

HN may be an echo chamber, but look what you're saying: Employers are desperate for developers, including entry level ones, mostly using older tech stacks, and they'll pay solid money for them.

It doesn't sound like you're describing a world in which someone with 10+ years of solid experience with techs is going to be struggling to find a job, right?

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#167

Post by knodi123 »

voidfunc wrote: post #137
omouse wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And having a single development job at a big company for a decade isn't some kind of career-killing move... unless you turn it into one, by letting your skills stagnate and wither, which is on you. Working 40 hrs without training or proper mentoring leads to skill stagnation. A $500 training budget will get you nowhere and you'll find yourself using long weekends (like I'm doing right now) learning new skills. Mayb…

Can anyone please tell me what developers use training budgets for? I feel like most things I have learned are from free resources such as blogs and StackOverflow. What do people spend money on? Books I suppose are the most likely candidate, but those can definitely be bought with $500... Do people actually get value out of conferences? Those always seem more like cash grabs and marketing events than actual training…

> Do people actually get value out of conferences?

In terms of skill development? Yes, although it's value you could get for free if you read the right blogs, keep involved in the community, and are a self-motivated person.

In terms of networking? Yes, although perhaps you could get that for free too, if you go to enough hackerspaces and meetups etc.

Ironically, a lot of the people I meet at conferences are the kind of driven, motivated, outgoing people who are well suited to getting those benefits for free. But not all of them!

I certainly derive value from going to conferences.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#168

Post by vonmoltke »

mkozlows wrote: post #157
vonmoltke wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is an absolutely baffling article. The job market for developers is not glutted by over-supply, it's one where marginally-qualified people get hired for salaries well above the national average because companies need SOMEONE to do the job. And virtually nowhere cares about degrees, especially for experienced devs. What is baffling is this Valley-centric, web and mobile development-centric line being repeated c…

I have friends who are devs and hiring managers (several of whom have no degrees, even) in many cities -- Detroit, Columbus, Portland, Chicago, SF -- and the same thing is true in all those places. If you live in a small town, I can believe that the opportunities are limited, but in basically any metro area of any size, it's a developers' market.

Well, I live in Dallas. I have been fishing in Dallas and Austin over the past several months and can't get any interviews. I would like to know where all these "desperate" companies are and what domains they are in.

Re: The Unemployable Programmer

#170

Post by knowaveragejoe »

iovar wrote: post #14

I sympathize with your trouble but what you describe seems exaggerated to me. If within a year you made only a thousand dollars, why didn't you spend more time working on a side project, or sharpening your skills? Maybe the ones you currently have are not much in demand? Also, freelancing sites do have a lot of low quality jobs, but if you spend some time digging around you can find decent jobs; e.g. I, a poor countr…

If it seems exaggerated, that's because it is. Outside of NYC and SF, there's basically nowhere in the US where businesses wouldn't hire a competent programmer on the spot.
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