If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear • Hacker News Board

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#161

Post by nkhodyunya » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

jedrek wrote: post #108

jsingleton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. The Open Rights Group regularly do briefings on things like this and one of the "Responses you might get and how to counter them" arguments is: "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear That isn’t true. Surveillance has been used against journalists, whistleblowers and human rights activists. Most of us want to keep parts of our lives private." [0] I've had people use the naïve "nothing to fear…

If they have nothing to hide, ask them for nudes.

Well, I have nothing to hide and would probably give you my nudes if I have nothing else to do.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#162

Post by baddox » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:26 PM UTC

rorykoehler wrote: post #148

67726e wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or when someone breaks into your apartment and the police have an average response time of, what, 10 minutes or so? How about when you pull over to assist a crashed motorcyclist and it turns out he's a DUI-case and attempts to car-jack you? How about when you see someone waltz into your neighbors backyard and kick in the door? All things that have happened to either myself, or a coworker in the past year. Is it unrea…

My personal experiences in some of the cases you have mentioned. 2 times house break, both times I confronted the burglars with a kitchen knife and gave them an avenue to escape which they took. I would never want to kill someone because they tried take my property. It's just stuff and quite frankly I value human life much higher, even if it is the life of a criminal who is taking my things. The fact that there are s…

> The fact that there are so many of these situations points towards a different and bigger problem in society and I would much rather energy was spent on fixing them than treating symptoms with firearms.

Of course there's a bigger problem. But I would much rather own a gun and actually be able to protect myself and my family, than refuse to have a gun on principle and just pray that one day I get to effect all of society. The latter is like refusing to wear a seat belt, because people should really be driving safely.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#163

Post by CHY872 » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:27 PM UTC

I could swear that I've read this exact article before...

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#164

Post by dalke » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:27 PM UTC

joesmo wrote: post #65

dalke wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"a persecuted group in the USA right now are gun owners." Pardon? That stretched the meaning of 'persecution' past the breaking point and into the realm of meaninglessness. Every driver needs a license, and the car needs to be registered and with a license plate. Car licenses are used for taxation purposes and to help the authorities identify the owner of a vehicles . Watch out! Come the next revolution, when the cyc…

It really depends on the state. Making blanket statements about guns in the US is simply ignorant and stupid. In NJ, for example, it's not even safe to move your guns when changing residences, let alone taking them out of the house at any other time for any other purpose (taking a handgun off your property is equal to committing robbery with it in the eyes of the law for example). There are some protections under the…

And this is persecution (in the meaningful sense) because ... why? Or are you changing the topic to complain about NJ gun laws?

I mean, I'm from Florida. Moonshine is illegal in Florida. Even owning part of a still is illegal. Here's a report of someone charged with "among other counts, possession of more than a gallon of illegal liquor and possession of a still", which are "third-degree felonies, which carry a maximum penalty of five years in prison" http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-08-05/news/fl-wilton-m... .

Owning an unauthorized still in NJ is also illegal. Here's an arrest from a couple years back - http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/01/police_medford_man_... .

If you think that gun owners, and moonshiners, are both persecuted due to complex or draconian laws, then your definition of persecuted is rather meaningless.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#165

Post by baddox » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:29 PM UTC

walru wrote: post #147

rorykoehler wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don't understand about the want to have freedom to bare arms (aside from moral arguments about what high levels of gun ownership does to society, but let's not go there) is that the only time I can imagine needing a gun in life is during a time of civil war or some similar sort of uprising. It would not make any difference to me what the law was in this regard if lawlessness had already broken out and I feared…

Ownership of guns or a citizenry with guns does not degeneracy make. Education, or lack there of, is the ill to the mention you made. Take Switzerland. http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-...

I think that America's urban poverty and drug war are bigger factors.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#166

Post by baddox » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:30 PM UTC

partisan wrote: post #121

freshhawk wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Today, the government's military is so advanced that they'd quickly squash ..." Would they? They should try doing that now in all the various wars and police actions they are involved in.

1. They can't, at least not as plainly as stated here. The wars being fought today are asymmetrical and, in many cases, ideological. You can take out a pocket of resistance here or there, but there are no huge battles like in a war between two nations. Victories are small, cost more, are not decisive, but are guaranteed due to the overwhelming strength of the weapons. 2. More importantly: they don't want to. long dra…

> The wars being fought today are asymmetrical and, in many cases, ideological.

Yep, and an attempted takeover in the USA would also be asymmetrical and ideological.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#167

Post by baddox » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:31 PM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #91

carsongross wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that fending off a modern army with rifles is a pipe dream Tell that to the mujahideen...

My version of "fending off" includes an end goal where you're no longer under attack and don't have to hide out in caves. Guerrilla campaigns work because they're driving less-committed foreign invaders out through attrition. Our domestic military has nowhere else to withdraw to, and would necessarily have broken free of public opinion (otherwise democracy would put a stop to anything long before sustained conflict).…

> My version of "fending off" includes an end goal where you're no longer under attack and don't have to hide out in caves.

Vietnam.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#168

Post by OJFord » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

jsingleton wrote: post #33

dmvaldman wrote: post #3

"When you say I don't care about the right to privacy because I have nothing to hide, that is no different than saying I don't care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say or freedom of the press because I have nothing to write." - Edward Snowden

Well put. The Open Rights Group regularly do briefings on things like this and one of the "Responses you might get and how to counter them" arguments is: "If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear That isn’t true. Surveillance has been used against journalists, whistleblowers and human rights activists. Most of us want to keep parts of our lives private." [0] I've had people use the naïve "nothing to fear…

I disagree, you can have nothing to write but still desire to read "free thoughts" of those who do have things to write. Not sure there's a parallel for privacy, if you assume self-interest.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#169

Post by nkhodyunya » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:33 PM UTC

dmvaldman wrote: post #3

"When you say I don't care about the right to privacy because I have nothing to hide, that is no different than saying I don't care about freedom of speech because I have nothing to say or freedom of the press because I have nothing to write." - Edward Snowden

This is a bad analogy(really, was there any good one at all?). It's clear that when you have nothing to write it means you have no reason to bother about freedom of press as a writer. But still, as a reader, you probably want to have access to what others write, so it more depends on other's abilities to write. But when we speak about privacy, the whole thing changes. If you have nothing to hide, it's hard to imagine why should you care about someone else's right to privacy.

Re: If you've nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear

#170

Post by vehementi » Sat, Jul 11, 2015, 7:34 PM UTC

twoodfin wrote: post #135

And if you’re not content with living in a world where all of that data is public then you’d better stop repeating that silly mantra ‘if you’ve got nothing to hide then you’ve got nothing to fear’... Serious question: Who's making this argument? I don't hear it articulated by anyone, frankly. I'm sure there are people who hold this position and have argued for it, but are any of them in a position to make policy? Hav…

I see it frequently in these discussions. And it affects public opinion & the crawl of culture. So in a perhaps roundabout and very-hard-to-measure way, the people unthinkingly repeating that sound byte (not so much putting that forth as the spearhead of their argument on this topic) are making the world a worse place.