Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#161

Post by darkmighty » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:11 PM UTC

Nemcue wrote: post #119

Vaskivo wrote: post #64

I gathered my thoughts in a comment on the Bethesda blog post: http://www.bethblog.com/2015/04/27/why-were-trying-paid-skyr... TL,DR: Bethesda doesn't deserve the 45% of the sale, specially when they are charging 60$ for the game. IMO, they deserve 0%, for they have created nothing (and were already paid for the game/tools). And mods had value to the game, and increase it's lifetime. Two problems with paid mods: 1 -…

> Does Unity get a cut from Unity developed games? That is not unheard of. Afaik the free version of the Unreal engine has a royalty system. It's kind of the same thing with the Source 2 engine, except instead of paying royalty you promise to only publish on Steam.

> you pay Epic 5% of gross revenue after the first $3,000 per product per calendar quarter

That's 1/15 of the revenue share that would be in place at the Workshop.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#162

Post by Vraxx » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:11 PM UTC

ux-app wrote: post #123

kedean wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The core of the issue came down to the effects on the modder community. 1. Modders are hobbyists, not professionals. Many modders came right out and said they would no longer make mods under this system, because the pressure to charge means it becomes a job. They no longer would have the option to just walk away from the mod. 2. Piracy. Modders have explicitly made their mods available for free. Once you have a syste…

In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. That's an interesting perspective. Sounds like there are some valid criticisms of the system Valve has put in place. To me it seems that gamers have cut off their nose to spite their own face in this regard. It seems to me that a paid modding ecosystem would be a big win in favor of gamers. If lone hobbyists can improve a ga…

I think another valid pov from most of the gamers is the dislike for the system that has been growing where once you purchase a game there are usually a series of other purchases associated the game to get all of the content that somebody else has been playing. It's extremely frustrating to many of the players to have to continually purchase little bits of the game, and this trend has been started by "day one DLC (downloadable content)" and persisted with "pay to win" freemium models. In the end it seems most people saw this as a cash grab by valve, pushed by Bethesda to milk even more money out of their players. They see the charitable donations currently being given and want to translate that to earnings that a game can make, and this doesn't sit well with the fans.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#163

Post by jclos » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:12 PM UTC

scott_s wrote: post #148

jclos wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't to sound like a pessimist but reading the blog post on Steam I can't help but notice: "We understand our own game's communities pretty well, but stepping into an established, years old modding community in Skyrim was probably not the right place to start iterating." Translation: "We'll let it go this time ". It wouldn't surprise me if the next Bethesda game had that very same system baked-in right from the st…

Why would that be bad?

It's probably mainly a matter of personal opinion, but while I agree we should find a way to encourage better and more professional modding, I think that this particular implementation would create a technical/legal/ethical mess out of something which has worked well for the past decades. In short, they half-assed it, and it being one of the first implementations of this kind of system (and thus setting a huge precedent for other games) it should absolutely not be half-assed.

The particular problems I have are:

* Developers are already shipping less and less finished games knowing that they can pile on some more content afterwards in DLCs, for a steep fee. Knowing that they can just provide modding tools and let the users create the content themselves and still get a huge part (45% in the case of Bethesda) will just encourage the release of even more broken games.

* That's not even considering the fact that it encourages modding to go from a relatively open thing (you can open any mod in the mod editor software which you can get for free and add stuff to it yourself, and even redistribute it with the permission of the author) to a closed thing: there would be a big incentive to tack on some DRM to stop other people from "stealing content" from paid mods and create their own.

* Finally, it would turn the Steam workshop marketplace, which is already a mess, into the same thing that different app stores have become: a complete mess filled with garbage copycats trying to con people into giving them a few bucks.

I do not have a solution, but I think there should be more thought put into it. For the moment, patronage style remuneration and crowdfunding are the best solutions we have.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#164

Post by belorn » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:14 PM UTC

inerte wrote: post #134

mcphage wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

When you buy something you have some expectations. You'll want the mod to be stable, be updated along with the game, play along with other mods. If you are the seller, and you got paid, that means work. Give support or get shouted at by dozens of angry customers. Reply to emails for months to come when a competitor modder added your mod features to his mod and why the hell are you charging 4.99 if it's worth 1.99 and…

Donations normally also happens after someone has used the work, rather than upfront.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#165

Post by stfnppv » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:15 PM UTC

adam12 wrote: post #115

cma wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you make a Mickey Mouse sequel using derivative assets, how much of a cut would Disney want? Keeping in mind the assets would be open to competing high-caliber studios (back to the Skyrim example, just allowing for free modding generally precludes competing triple-A's from producing anything, but give them say a "fair" 75% cut of expansions or complete sequels to a competitor's bockbuster game, taking advantage of…

75% should go to the modders. If people are buying the mod, then the mod developer deserves most of the cash for the mod purchase. Remember, the player needs to buy the original game too. Those funds don't go to the mod developer.

Except in this case the 75% was going to the studios (Valve got their flat 30% cut, as with everything, and Bethesda elected to charge a further 45%). The modders were getting 25%.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#166

Post by mcphage » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:16 PM UTC

kedean wrote: post #133

mcphage wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

That comment is mostly by gamers, not modders. Also, the difference is that one assigns a worth, while the other is someone saying 'hey I appreciate what you do'.

> That comment is mostly by gamers, not modders

Ah, the ol' "look I want you to get paid for your work, I just don't want to have to be the one paying you. Don't worry, I'm sure tons of people will. Just not me."

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#167

Post by mcphage » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:17 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #136

mcphage wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

A donation doesn't instill the same level of responsibility to the product. A donation is to support a hobby, a payment is to support a job.

So they want to get paid, they just don't want any responsibility towards their product or the people who give them money for it?

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#168

Post by mcphage » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:18 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #147

mcphage wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet those folks don't stick their hands into our revenue stream. Game engines do. And they used to tack on $100,000 up front, to boot.

Not all game engines, some are free to use.

Some are, true. But the ones with lots of features, that everyone really wants to use—the ones that you can make games for multiple platforms, and that big development houses use—those... are not free.

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#169

Post by mcphage » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:20 PM UTC

Mtinie wrote: post #139

mcphage wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, GitHub offering a service where users could charge for software, and get the source code as well? And not just a core dump, but be part of a community building up that source? ...That's a pretty solid idea.

^ this. If anyone is interested in building it, send me a note, I'd love to be involved (but totally lack the skills to do it myself).

Heck, me too—I can think of several projects I worked on but eventually gave up on. If there was a way for me to get paid for it, still work on it, and have other people help out as well? Without having to operate my own storefront?

Re: Valve shuts down paid mod system after pressure from gamers

#170

Post by belorn » Tue, Apr 28, 2015, 2:21 PM UTC

talmand wrote: post #136

mcphage wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, because it's not a profession. I saw plenty of support for a donation system, however. So in the end, most modders don't WANT to be paid for their mods, except they do WANT to be paid and call it a donation?

A donation doesn't instill the same level of responsibility to the product. A donation is to support a hobby, a payment is to support a job.

Then do the Patreon model where the modder is "hired" by the community. The modder/s decide a minimum wage, and then see if the community is willing to continue to support the mod creation.

The beautiful aspect of this compared to selling products is that everyone involve know what is expected from each other, the responsibility to fix bugs is established in the beginning, and its very hard to sell someones else mod as your own.