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Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

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Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#161

Post by c22 »

cperciva wrote: post #26

At first I thought this was going to be a parody of "anti-rape-culture" campaigns (e.g., "teaching women to defend themselves from rapists is wrong, because we should be teaching men to not rape women"), but much to my surprise it seems that the author is serious. And so I really have to wonder about his grip on logic: The whole purpose of making cyclists more visible is to prevent drivers from hitting them! Driving…

I love it when people wear lights on themselves at night (pedestrians too!) It makes my job much easier whenever I am operating a car or a bicycle. However, if I realize that I have not noticed someone in the street until I am passing them that is an indicator that my speed is unreasonable for the conditions and I would immediately slow down.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#162

Post by kelnos »

c22 wrote: post #157
kelnos wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really the point (though I agree with you): the grandparent suggested that 80-90% of cyclists follow the rules of the road. The parent (and I) disagree with that; no one's suggesting those people want to get hit or are inattentive, just that they're not abiding by traffic laws. In fact, it's somewhat telling that most bicycle fatalities don't involve a cyclist doing something stupid: most cyclist law-breaking is…

My observations suggest that close to 100% of road users are not strictly law abiding and likely break multiple rules during most trips.

No one said they don't, and I'd agree with that. I think the whole law-abiding nature (or lack thereof) is a bit of a red herring when talking about this sort of thing. It's really just inattentiveness that causes drivers to hit cyclists, and a lack of awareness of cyclists in general. If a driver is about to make a right turn, he's often not thinking that a cyclist could be coming up on his right, from behind, so he doesn't even look there. That sort of thing is the real problem that needs to be fixed.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#163

Post by diyorgasms »

Svip wrote: post #70
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

As a motorist (with the licence to drive a bus) and a cyclist, I must stress that it is incredibly hard to see unlit cyclists at night. Particularly on raining nights it is practically impossible. I don't want to hit a bike, and neither does anyone else. But I think putting a focus on making them more visible is a good thing. Then again, I live in Denmark, so my views might be a bit skewed.

I agree with you there. Fortunately, in many jurisdictions in the United States, an electric rear light is mandatory.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#164

Post by diyorgasms »

pascalo wrote: post #48
gknoy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it could indeed kill you. It's rare, but certainly can happen: """ From 1996 to 2005, 11 pedestrians across New York City died after being struck by bicyclists.... 2006 to 2013, there were just four pedestrian deaths, according to the city’s Department of Transportation. """ [0] 0: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-09-23/pedestrian...

Very sad. However, you kind of made my point. That amounts to 0.8 pedestrian fatalities a year caused by cyclists, with a population of 8.4 million people.

That could be partly because it is illegal in many jurisdictions in the United States for a cyclist to ride on the sidewalks.

It is entirely possible that the low bike-on-pedestrian fatality rate is due in part to the law mandating that cyclists and pedestrians be segregated.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#165

Post by diyorgasms »

vishaldpatel wrote: post #44
ygra wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's not in arms against the tech, but rather against the laws that make them mandatory. Because it encourages motor vehicle drivers even more to not properly pay attention because they're not the ones at fault when hitting a cyclist.

Helmet laws may be dumb, but visibility laws could actually make cycling much safer!

Or, and here's a shocking concept, motorists could actually pay attention to their surroundings. Cyclists are not difficult to spot if you are paying proper attention while operating your vehicle.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#166

Post by [deleted] »

baddox wrote: post #77
stephendedalus wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is he implying that some significant portion of alleged car-on-bike accidents are actually purposeful assault from the automobile driver? I find that very difficult to believe. No, he's not. He's implying that instead of motorists being charged with reckless driving or other similar charges, they're most often not even charged. I once had a car make a left turn across 4 lanes of traffic and a turn lane and t-bone m…

I have no complaints about the claim that drivers should more often be charged with reckless driving, but that's very different than suggesting that a significant portion of these incidents are purposeful collisions initiated by the automobile driver.

[deleted]

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#167

Post by mercer »

jinushaun wrote: post #29
makeitsuckless wrote: post #12

I've repeated this dozens of times whenever Americans come up with lame excuses for why cycling is dangerous in the US: in the Netherlands cyclists still share the road with cars a lot of the time. The rules however are very simple: as a driver, you're not allowed to hit weaker traffic like cyclists and pedestrians. Period. If it happens, the burden of proof that you could do nothing about it is on you. Is this insan…

I'm a cyclist in the U.S., but have no problem admitting that probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault. I've ridden bikes in Europe with real bike lanes—U.S. urban cycling culture is not Dutch cycling culture. There is not a culture of responsible cycling. We don't have real bike lanes. We don't stop for red lights. We don't stop for pedestrians. As a result, the U.S. also does not have many drivers or pedes…

Cycling locals in Amsterdam are far from 'responsible'. People cross with red lights constantly, to the point where there is a social pressure to conform or be seen as either a tourist or just annoyingly in the way. People actively scare pedestrians by passing them close by and at high speeds (I've done this in... lesser moods, and I'm not proud of it).

The reason this causes relatively few accidents is because people driving cars in cities are extra careful.

Because of this I'm inclined to believe that the safety of cyclists is a result of regulation much more than 'responsible' cycling.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#168

Post by pandaman »

maaaats wrote: post #108
pandaman wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe cyclists in SF are so special, but in LA I have yet to see a cyclist stopping at a stop sign. I walk to/from work about 2 miles each way and see about a dozen cyclists every day. Sure, cars some times do not stop at the sign either but I don't see this happening nearly as often as I see cyclists just happily cycling through stop without even an attempt to slow down. And I see much more cars than bikes.

Of course you have seen a bicycle stop for a stop sign. No need to lie, it throws away all points you're trying to make. Besides, this is the typical confirmation-biased anecdotes that pollutes these discussions. Have you thought of why this is so common? A bicycle uses human power, stopping is a much bigger hassle than sitting lazily in a car. And a bicycle approaches a stop sign much slower than a car, this having…

If I have seen - I don't remember doing so. As for why are they do not stop - I don't really care. The message I replied to said 90% bicyclists don't drive illegally, which contradicts my experience.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#169

Post by Arnt »

cperciva wrote: post #135
birken wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a cyclist and I completely disagree with this. I've biked thousands and thousands of miles in SF, and I think probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit. They are not the majority. And if you want further proof, just read the list of bicycle fatalities in SF [1] and see who is at fault. Most of the time it is…

probably 90% of the time, the cyclist is at fault probably 80 or 90% of cyclists are responsible and law abiding. There are maybe 10 or 20 percent who are bad, run red lights and do other crazy shit Just to be clear, your statistics don't actually disagree with each other. It's entirely possible -- I'd even say likely -- that the 10 or 20 percent of cyclists who "do crazy shit" are involved in and responsible for 90%…

No idea about SF, but where I live, cycle-related facilities are split into 20% that are clearly the cyclist's fault, another 20% that are clearly the driver's, and 60% that either involve a combination of errors or where the details are difficult to ascertain, particularly since one person involved is dead.

If you assume that the 20% of fatal accidents that are purely the driver's fault are evenly distributed among cyclists, can you also assume that any 10-20% of cyclists are involved in 90% of accidents?

Fatal accidents don't have to be like general accidents. But.

Re: Don’t make bicyclists more visible. Make drivers stop hitting them

#170

Post by rahimnathwani »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #154
danielwarna wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd claim that cyclists tend behave a lot more like other motorists than like pedestrians The speed difference between a cyclists and a pedestrian is usually bigger than that between a car and a cyclists, at least in urban traffic. Pedestrians can be very unpredictable and they don't tend to signal very clearly what they are about to do, not to mention that a pedestrian can stop or turn around pretty much instantly.…

So, I live in Shanghai, which hopefully qualifies as "urban" with a population of over 20 million people (according to wikipedia, almost 10k per square mile, healthily above LA). All of the following situations are routine: 1. Dedicated bike lanes. 2. Bikes hiding along the side of a street without bike lanes, hoping not to be killed. 3. Bikes using the sidewalk. Sharing the sidewalk is far and away the safest thing…

I've lived in China (Beijing and Shanghai) for ~5 years, and frequently ride bicycles and an electric Vespa-style scooter.

Bicycles and scooters on the sidewalk, ridden by inconsiderate riders, are common, irritating and dangerous. The same is true of cars driving in cycle lanes or service lanes, and the myriad other thinga car drivers do to make life difficult for cyclists.

Sure, cycling on the pavement may be in your own self-interest, but it is strictly bad for pedestrians. Why should they have to change their walking pattern for you? I will give way to electric scooters on the sidewalk, not because I don't mind them, but because it's less unpleasant than a collision or being shouted/hooted at.

/rant

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