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Coding Like a Girl

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Re: Coding Like a Girl

#161

Post by wongarsu »

alexmat wrote: post #148
wongarsu wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Likewise, if all you know about someone is they are a developer, assuming they are male is not a terrible strategy since you are correct 90% of the time! Yes, and I'm not questioning that. The problem is that that same statistic says nothing about the likelihood that a given female is a developer.

But if about half the people in the world are female and there are more male than female developers, then isn't it safe to assume that the likelihood of a random male being a developer is going to be higher than that of a random female?

When picking a random person from a phone book, yes. But that's not what this whole discussion is about. In virtually any real situation you don't have a completely random female. In most relevant situations you don't even have even close to equal amounts of men and woman in your sample.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#162

Post by andyroid »

gaius wrote: post #73
spiffyman wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's true. You might get disregarded as a "business guy" if you show up to a meetup in a suit. But it's just as likely that people will just assume you're in financials. One of the better Python speakers I know of shows up everywhere in a suit. But women consistently report not being taken seriously when wearing dresses.

The key takeaway is, as soon as she dressed as a member of "the tribe" everything was fine. So that tells me it's something other than a gender issue.

Yeah, either that or "the tribe" is the gender issue.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#163

Post by foldr »

Mithaldu wrote: post #158
foldr wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you'd hate an accent just because you find it difficult to understand as (I'm guessing) a non-native speaker. It's probably just a matter of getting more practice at listening to it.

Because generally these people are perfectly capable of using the standard version of their language just fine . I make exceptions for people who were alive at the times of WW2, but most people who speak in heavy accents do it because they have no courtesy for their fellow humans. As for more practice: I already spent 16 years learning english to a near-native degree (among others). I'm not gonna bother trying to lea…

>most people who speak in heavy accents do it because they have no courtesy for their fellow humans.

People speak in their native dialects, and there are a lot of different dialects in Britain. I'm sure it's frustrating a as a second language speaker sometimes. However, the idea that cockneys are simply refusing to speak in Received Pronunciation is just laughable to any British person. You might as well ask a Belgian to speak French with a Parisian accent, or an Australian to speak like an American news reader. People can modulate their dialect to an extent, but beyond a certain limit, people would feel as if they were doing a silly impression rather than speaking naturally.

Your attitude is shitty. If you are learning a second language, dealing with dialectal variation is part of that. I am learning Spanish and I find Mexicans, for example, easier to understand than Cubans. I don't blame that on Cubans.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#164

Post by zeendo »

JDiculous wrote: post #74
zeendo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget the connotation 'horrific'. Are you asking why we should work to stop this behavior? Pardon me for assuming but here are my thoughts - Because it's literally systematically oppressive. This behavior makes an entire gender less likely to participate in our field. That's bad for the gender and it's bad for the field. Isn't that enough reason to work to fix it? So what if there are non-malicious explanations for…

I'm saying that it's impossible to fix. If you're a short white guy, people will always initially assume that you're not a pro basketball player. Again, as long as you're not overly zealous about your assumptions and willing to accept when they're wrong, it's not discrimination or "systematic oppression". Feminists try to turn this into a gender war, but it's really not. It's the circumstance of any minority in any h…

I'm sorry that you think it's impossible to fix. I think it is possible to fix by getting some balance in our numbers. Getting more women around, basically. If we see more women in software then we'll start to get rid of our stereotypes.

When I say systematically oppressive I mean that there are few women programmers and because of that we have stereotypes that women don't program and when we express those stereotypes it drives women out of programming in many ways. Thus the system reinforces itself.

Again, this sucks for both women and our field.

Let's work together to fix it.

How do we do that? By making fewer assumptions about people. And asking each other to do the same.

I do not believe this is a big ask but I do believe the potential benefit is huge.

I sincerely hope that you're wrong about it being impossible to fix. I would hope that you'd at least think it's worth trying given the stakes.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#165

Post by Mithaldu »

foldr wrote: post #163
Mithaldu wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because generally these people are perfectly capable of using the standard version of their language just fine . I make exceptions for people who were alive at the times of WW2, but most people who speak in heavy accents do it because they have no courtesy for their fellow humans. As for more practice: I already spent 16 years learning english to a near-native degree (among others). I'm not gonna bother trying to lea…

>most people who speak in heavy accents do it because they have no courtesy for their fellow humans. People speak in their native dialects, and there are a lot of different dialects in Britain. I'm sure it's frustrating a as a second language speaker sometimes. However, the idea that cockneys are simply refusing to speak in Received Pronunciation is just laughable to any British person. You might as well ask a Belgia…

My attitude isn't shitty, it's an honest observation. I know people from four different places in germany who can speak in hilariously heavy dialects (frisian, bavarian, saxonian, swabian), in northern uk (scotland), and various parts of the usa (people from 'redneck' states are amazing for online play), and they're able to switch to the standard version of their country's language at the drop of a hat.

Also, you are comparing apples and oranges. I am talking about people in their own country with dialects, you're talking about people in other countries speaking differently from the country where their language originated in.

Frankly, i would appreciate it if you wouldn't constantly assume that i am lying for the sake of my "internet cred".

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#166

Post by foldr »

Mithaldu wrote: post #165
foldr wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>most people who speak in heavy accents do it because they have no courtesy for their fellow humans. People speak in their native dialects, and there are a lot of different dialects in Britain. I'm sure it's frustrating a as a second language speaker sometimes. However, the idea that cockneys are simply refusing to speak in Received Pronunciation is just laughable to any British person. You might as well ask a Belgia…

My attitude isn't shitty, it's an honest observation. I know people from four different places in germany who can speak in hilariously heavy dialects (frisian, bavarian, saxonian, swabian), in northern uk (scotland), and various parts of the usa (people from 'redneck' states are amazing for online play), and they're able to switch to the standard version of their country's language at the drop of a hat. Also, you are…

It is simply not true that anyone who speaks a dialect can easily switch to a more standard pronunciation. To take your particular example, the idea of a born-and-bred cockney speaker suddenly switching to Received Pronunciation is just laughable to any British person. If you won't believe this coming from me, a British person, then I'm not sure how much further we can take this conversation.

>I am talking about people in their own country with dialects, you're talking about people in other countries speaking differently from the country where their language originated in.

I don't see why national boundaries are particularly significant here. Intranational dialectal variation can be as large as international variation. If your point is that it's not reasonable to expect a Cuban to put on a Mexican accent, then I'd point out that it's equally unreasonable to expect someone from the East End to speak like the Queen. In both cases, even if the person happened to be able to do a good impression of the accent in question, they'd feel as though they were doing an impression rather than having a normal conversation.

In general, there is no conspiracy here. If people want to communicate with you, and feel able to speak in a more standard dialect to help with this, then they will. If they don't, it's because they can't.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#167

Post by rezistik »

stephenboyd wrote: post #135
rezistik wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's about identifying the problem though. Is it sexism, or is it general prejudice? A dress is definitely more feminine, but it's also more professional. In the same vein, if you were a suit it would be more professional. My point is she was treated as less technical because people assumed she was. When she dressed in the "nerd uniform" people treated her like a technical member. If that's the case then it isn't sex…

Keep in mind that the "nerd uniform" was created by only one gender. And most dresses are not stuffy professional attire. Most of my female friends wear casual dresses in casual situations.

Definitely something to keep in mind.

When I dress up at programming events, by dress up I mean a button up and nice jeans I stick out. I have people assume I'm non technical.

My real point is that she was treated like a programmer when she dressed in a t shirt and jeans. It wasn't about her sex, it was about her clothing.

I'm all for abolishing the t shirt jeans combo personally, I like wearing adult clothing. But our industry is founded on t shirts, flip flops and ill fitting jeans. If you look substantially out of place, you'll be treated as out of place.

I delight in proving that I fit in despite my appearance. But that's a me thing. I don't expect everyone to act or feel that way.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#168

Post by zeendo »

JDiculous wrote: post #136
Bahamut wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying it is "impossible to fix" is a bad attitude - difficult may be accurate, but declaring impossibility is a display of laziness/lack of creativity or knowledge of history. It denigrates the efforts of those who believe it possible to change the course of history.

When I said it's impossible to fix, I was referring to the majority making assumptions about someone who doesn't fit their mold. Telling people to be politically correct about it isn't going to fix it.

You say politically correct and I say treating people with respect.

Re: Coding Like a Girl

#169

Post by danielmiessler »

rfrey wrote: post #109
danielmiessler wrote: post #106

I hear and feel the frustration, but it's misplaced. If a man shows up to a tech conference dressed like the guys from Jersey Shore, he's going to be looked down on by everyone there. He'll be assumed to be part of the delivery people doing setup for the booths. If he complains that he's a programmer and that he shouldn't be judged by his clothing, he will get mixed results. It's true that if he turns out to be a nic…

I agree with everything you said, except the conclusion (that you led with.) The OP said she wore a dress. Not "extremely femininely and girlishly". She wore a dress. "But the one thing we cannot do is demand that the entire world see signals differently than they see them out on the street." Apparently the entire world thinks wearing a dress is a signal that one cannot be a technical person. That's the point of the…

You missed the other cues in the article.
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