Show me the salary! • Hacker News Board

Re: Show me the salary!

#161

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:04 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #22

e-dard wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then have a range? Of course you need to pay different employees different salaries, but that doesn't mean you can't expose potential employees to the salary they might expect to earn.

Because if you can afford to stretch your range up to attract an elite candidate you will do. Explaining to people who are perfectly well qualified for the job including your own existing employees why they're at the bottom of the range is an uncomfortable conversation... much more uncomfortable than explaining why an actually-hired elite candidate whose been given additional responsibilities earns 50% more salary.

Too bad?

Re: Show me the salary!

#162

Post by gambiting » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:05 PM UTC

aquadrop wrote: post #68

fukupayme2 wrote: post #55

A big problem here in London is the willingness of big firms, especially financial ones to pay market rate in all conditions. An example: I work at an IB, doing Python/Quant development. We are presented with two candidates to interview. Candidate 1 is ok, has a year or two of Python but otherwise mostly Java background. Did so-so in the algo and numerical discussions, was ok in the problem solving categories. He was…

How HR knew about their current salary? Did they tell it themselves? Cause it's clearly not beneficial.

In UK your employer can see what you've earned before. As explained elsewhere, it's because unless you run your own company you don't have to do your own taxes. Government does it for you, even if you have multiple jobs they will figure out exactly how much you need to pay without you bothering with it. But the downside is that yes, you have to disclose how much you've earned before(there are situations when you can make the figure appear slightly larger or smaller,but it's not very easy).

Re: Show me the salary!

#163

Post by s73v3r » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:06 PM UTC

WhitneyLand wrote: post #89

crdoconnor wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I haven't seen a scalable way to roll out total salary transparency with a net gain in company psychology #1 Make sure everybody is paid as much as they deserve as far as you can tell. #2 Roll out total salary transparency. Not being "scalable" sounds like another way of saying "we don't want to do #1, it sounds expensive. Secrecy is cheaper.".

This implies some sort of unfairness is being hidden, which should be the easy part of the problem. The hard part is that equitable salaries do not mean equal salaries. If you there are large differences based completely on merit it's very difficult to make someone feel good about being lower than the person sitting next to them, even if it's objectively fair.

If those differences actually exist, they should be pretty easy to demonstrate.

Re: Show me the salary!

#164

Post by gambiting » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:09 PM UTC

henrikschroder wrote: post #111

fukupayme2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can get worse - I know of people who have been asked by the IB to prove their current salary/bonus levels, to avoid inflation or overstated earnings. They do also verify via the P45 as well. Best bet is to join one, if you have to, from a contractor route. Then you have an advantage, as they know you are most likely on a higher rate and are not willing to muck around with the usual HR demands.

Don't you get the P45 after you left your old company? Which means they can only look at it after you were hired. Also, why is it the employee's responsibility to not drive inflation? If the company is fine with paying someone X for a job, why does it matter what the person earned before?

Well, that would be a great first impression if the very first thing the company found out about you was that you've lied in the interview about how much you've earned before.

Re: Show me the salary!

#165

Post by emodendroket » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:25 PM UTC

rmc wrote: post #58

emodendroket wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's amazing to me is all the recruiters who call you to ask if you want to do temp-to-perm work when you have a full-time job. Why would you agree to that?

Well, clearly the temp salary should be much higher than perm salary in order to compensate for the extra risk, right?

The salary numbers tend to magically shrink if you actually say you'd like to hear more.

Re: Show me the salary!

#166

Post by Mister_Snuggles » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:28 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #105

Mister_Snuggles wrote: post #12

I've got a handful of general rules around salary that tell me not to apply for certain jobs: - I don't apply to jobs that don't list a salary range. This is a red flag that tells me that the employer doesn't have the budget to pay market rates and that applying and interviewing could be a colossal waste of time for both of us. I get that the employer may not be willing to pay what I want based on my experience, etc,…

These are good rules when the going is good. But you need to be flexible when times are bad. In technology (and probably many other industries), it's feast and famine. Whilst today, a good engineer can expect to see recruiters spamming them weekly or even daily, this wasn't the case in, say, 2001-4, 2008-9. Your rules also seem to be for people who already have jobs. When you're unemployed, your pickiness factor has…

I absolutely agree. These are the rules I follow right now, but if my situation changed I would definitely become more flexible on them.

Re: Show me the salary!

#167

Post by Iftheshoefits » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:28 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #108

Iftheshoefits wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between not posting salary and not telling a potential candidate when asked. Given that in America at least incredibly few companies post salary ranges to the public it is a stretch (and insulting) to claim applicants for positions with no posted salary are desperate.

That approach is still flawed though. In a seller's market, which I do believe the developer market currently is, the buyer is the one who has to do the marketing. Supplying expected compensation up front is one of the best ways to market your business to developers. If I, a developer, am making $100K and you make it known that you are willing to pay $200K, I'm going to get excited and get in touch with you. If I am…

I don't disagree that posting salaries ought to be far more common than it is.

I also am not convinced that it's a seller's market. Most programmers (developers, software engineers, whatever) are treated like second-class citizens from the first phone screen through the "culture fit" portion of an on-site interview.

Regardless, my point wasn't about whether companies should or should not post salaries; it was that applicants to companies that don't ought not be considered "desperate for any job" because it is simply a fact that all but a very tiny percentage of jobs are advertised without said salary listed.

Re: Show me the salary!

#168

Post by serve_yay » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:29 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #134

serve_yay wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I see almost nothing written in this whole thread from the perspective of the person who is making more than their coworkers (or believes that to be the case). I don't want to discuss salaries! In fact, one time earlier in my career I was in a group of coworkers who all went around and said their salaries, and mine was 2x all of them, so I kept quiet. My point is just that I don't think it only benefits the emplo…

Did you keep quiet because you believed you were being paid unfairly or because you believed THEY were being paid unfairly? If you thought they were underpaid, you were kind of doing them a disservice by keeping quiet. Knowledge of a pay disparity within a group of similar employees tends to help the negotiating power of those who are making less, but does not tend to hurt those who are making more.

I guess you won't be a fan of this, but I don't really care if I did them a disservice. I hate that engineers do themselves a disservice by not getting the money they can get. Though if it's any consolation, I have started talking to my current coworkers who I know are good and who are not happy with the pay they currently make. I encourage them to get what they can get - but I still don't tell them what I make.

About being paid unfairly - I don't think I agree with this as a basic concept, at least in the context of software development. They were getting paid what they agreed to when they signed on the dotted line.

Re: Show me the salary!

#169

Post by logicallee » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:49 PM UTC

sukilot wrote: post #95

logicallee wrote: post #74

Guys, there are countries where the candidate is expected to state their salary and not the company. The thinking is that the candidate is the seller (i.e. receives cash) and the company is the buyer (i.e. pays cash)!! We can use an ISO99-standard car analogy here for their thinking: Think of the candidate as the salesman of a car (themselves), and the employer as the buyer of the car, who wants to use it for somethi…

That only works if you are selling a standardized service. In reality, your work product is very much a function of the environment you work in.

yes, you're right, especially in America, corporate jobs are standardized, and it's more common for the employer to have a standard set salary offered.

I was just describing the point of view common in some other countries, in which case the employee is expected to come up with their requirement and state it. Neither one is correct or incorrect. (And both have real-world analogies - for example, auctions, which can also be an analogy for the job market in that there's only 1 of specifically you, where bidders have to offer an amount rather than the seller saying how much something costs.)

Re: Show me the salary!

#170

Post by seestheday » Thu, Feb 26, 2015, 6:59 PM UTC

eitally wrote: post #119

fukupayme2 wrote: post #55

A big problem here in London is the willingness of big firms, especially financial ones to pay market rate in all conditions. An example: I work at an IB, doing Python/Quant development. We are presented with two candidates to interview. Candidate 1 is ok, has a year or two of Python but otherwise mostly Java background. Did so-so in the algo and numerical discussions, was ok in the problem solving categories. He was…

As a technical manager, I regularly have a similar problem. I often hire folks [in Mexico and Brazil] with minimal experience, either fresh from school or coming off their first 1-2yr job(s) out of school. As such, we pay them pretty low. If they prove their value and become key contributors, I naturally want to give them a 50-100% raise after a year or so. This always results in painful discussions with HR/Comp abou…

This is awesome. Kudos to you.

You are doing these guys a favour, but it is also very beneficial to the company in the long run. If they are good and aren't treated well then they will leave. It is as simple as that.

I'm also guessing that since you're getting them so cheaply to begin with then they're likely still under market rate with a ~75% bump in pay.