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My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

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Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#161

Post by gummadi »

vijucat wrote: post #159

The "Are you good enough for us?" interview process is seriously broken, maybe even neurotic, considering that the excessive focus on weeding out false positives actually ends up rejecting too many good people such as you who would end up contributing a LOT. The inequation is : Savings due to reducing false positives 10X lower It takes intelligence to realize this, because weeding out false positives (LHS) is a Reali…

>> Give everyone a long probation period, and allowing them to seek feedback frequently as to how they can influence the decision to hire them on a more permanent basis so that the final decision will not be a surprise binary event.

Hypothetically, let's assume every company follows this method and around 30% of the employees who went through long probation period didn't make it through. Wouldn't that leave the employees in an even worse situation than getting rejected immediately, since they resigned their current job and now everyone in his professional circle knows that he or she didn't make it through company X's probation period? In addition to that, the employer will also accrue a lot more negative publicity from the employees who didn't make it through.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#162

Post by bonn1 »

Maybe Apple is overdoing the hiring process but I think it's the right approach especially for a company like Apple. I rather risk to decline ten good candidates instead of hiring one wrong one. Hiring not fitting people will cost the company so much time and money that a expensive hiring process is justified. Question is which hiring process leads to good fits only but this is a different discussion.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#163

Post by davidw »

downandout wrote: post #135

Though this isn't as bad as many I've read, stories like this are the reason I have never applied to work at any of these large firms (Google, Apple, etc.). I have been a full-time developer for more than 20 years. I have 4 software patents to my name, one of which formed the basis of a startup that was acquired for $64 million. I know a few people at Facebook and Google (not at Apple), and I am definitely in the sam…

I'm not an Apple fan, and wouldn't apply there myself, but this doesn't actually sound that bad. It moved along relatively quickly and he had a definitive answer in a fairly short time frame after his interview was done.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#164

Post by __chrismc »

sandworm wrote: post #142

I cannot stand the whole "culture fit" gambit. It's a job, not a country club. The idea that some people will "fit in" and others won't and that this can be determined during an interview is naive at best. What you get are a bunch of new hires who's only qualification over the not-hired is that they put on a good show for the interviewers. I'd say they are the best actors, but that doesn't cover those very good actor…

As someone who's travelled 10,000 mile round-trips for final interviews, only to lose out on "culture fit," I find it the most frustrating excuse for not getting a job I have otherwise proven over previous interview rounds that I am capable for. Why? Because it's totally unquantifiable and subjective. Fair enough if you find a hole in my technical ability which would limit my performance in the job you want me to do, but using "culture" as the excuse is a nonsense.

There could be any number of reasons someone might not appear to "fit" on a given interview day, which wouldn't necessarily apply in them in the day-to-day - jet lag, the stress of the interview process, being under the weather and many more...

People and cultures adapt over time, through contact with each other; if you're denying good candidates because of their "fit" in the now, you're artificially limiting yourself for the future.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#165

Post by downandout »

davidw wrote: post #163
downandout wrote: post #135

Though this isn't as bad as many I've read, stories like this are the reason I have never applied to work at any of these large firms (Google, Apple, etc.). I have been a full-time developer for more than 20 years. I have 4 software patents to my name, one of which formed the basis of a startup that was acquired for $64 million. I know a few people at Facebook and Google (not at Apple), and I am definitely in the sam…

I'm not an Apple fan, and wouldn't apply there myself, but this doesn't actually sound that bad. It moved along relatively quickly and he had a definitive answer in a fairly short time frame after his interview was done.

4 months is quick?

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#166

Post by collyw »

base698 wrote: post #150
downandout wrote: post #135

Though this isn't as bad as many I've read, stories like this are the reason I have never applied to work at any of these large firms (Google, Apple, etc.). I have been a full-time developer for more than 20 years. I have 4 software patents to my name, one of which formed the basis of a startup that was acquired for $64 million. I know a few people at Facebook and Google (not at Apple), and I am definitely in the sam…

This is a pretty awful reason to not even try. From the outside seems like working at any of those listed would be awesome if not just compensation but ability to grow. I tend to err on the side of "I suck" when an interview doesn't go my way. Some people err on the side where everyone else is the problem. Different ways to deal with butt hurt. Disclaimer: I have interviewed at Google and other hard places with mixed…

I used to be good at these tests when I first started out 14 years ago (fresh out of university).

I have never had to implement a linked list in my career. I am a much better software engineer now, writing modular, maintainable applications, but they want to see what obscure algorithm I can implement in an hour and a half? Whats the point in that?

(I had a skype interview with Google before. Messed up the algorithm question, then half an hour after the interview was finished a good solution came into my head).

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#167

Post by sheepmullet »

swombat wrote: post #152
sandworm wrote: post #142

I cannot stand the whole "culture fit" gambit. It's a job, not a country club. The idea that some people will "fit in" and others won't and that this can be determined during an interview is naive at best. What you get are a bunch of new hires who's only qualification over the not-hired is that they put on a good show for the interviewers. I'd say they are the best actors, but that doesn't cover those very good actor…

Oh dear, where to start with this... > It's a job, not a country club. Yes, it's a job, but your ability to deliver on your work is not defined merely by private metrics like how fast you type, how many lines of code you can write a day, or even how knowledgeable and experienced you are about C++. Pretty much every job that you might apply to involves very large amounts of communication with your colleagues. When tha…

"Pretty much every job that you might apply to involves very large amounts of communication with your colleagues."

Yes, and the ability to communicate well with people who are culturally different is incredibly important.

Trying to find someone who has the same cultural fit as the interviewers is counterproductive unless your company is tiny or there is no mobility.

At my current company:

- We have close to 20% turnover and 10% growth in our software division.

- We have over 25 developers in our division.

- Developers frequently need to interact with the business arm, with the sales arm, and with the customer support arm. They all have significantly different cultures.

- Our clients have different cultures and as an "agile shop" our developers deal directly with them.

Getting along with the 4 people who interview you means next to nothing in light of the above.

I want people who can get behind our vision, who are good at their work, and who can get along with people whom they might not be best friends with outside of work.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#168

Post by iopq »

mc32 wrote: post #139
iopq wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have a "write some algorithm in 15 minutes" self because I never do it at my job, but here I am, trying to rush an implementation on a whiteboard.

Part of that is doing research and getting to know what the company looks for in candidates and what you can expect in interviews and how you meet them. Sometimes it won't be a good fit, and that's alright. If they want you to be their monkey and that's not you, I'd say don't do it. Of course, that's very easy for me to say, but if you think it's unreasonable and don't like it, find another company. There is no "one"…

I wouldn't be doing that at the job either. Who writes algorithms under time pressure on a whiteboard?

You have all day to write code on your computer at a job. There is no rush. But the interview is much different than what you'd be doing at the job.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#169

Post by robmcm »

qxmat wrote: post #160

The last big interview I had was with a four letter company in Canary Wharf. The interview 'day' was me alone in a catered meeting room with a File->New assignment. Despite end of the day praise and the acknowledgement that I'd be recommended for the next phase, not to mention a genuine rapport with the devs that sporadically popped in, the four letter firm acquired a software house and froze recruitment a week later…

I have been on the other side when consulting at a 4 letter company in that location.

Most of the time you know nothing about the interview until someone asks you to give them a technical screening an hour before. There is also no formal process or seeming involvement from HR, it's just a, "is this person any good". From my experience it often comes down to, in order of importance: - Are they willing to be perm - Do they know what they are talking about - Will they fit in the team

The first one seems to be a trump card, even though most perms end up leaving before the contractors.

This brings me onto another point in which the best interview process is hiring someone as a consultant, and then converting them after a year or so if you are both happy to.

Re: My experience of interviewing for a job at Apple

#170

Post by robmcm »

natch wrote: post #31

The author has an odd interest in sharing numbers that, while significant, show that the point is being missed. Sure, 700 billion is an impressive market cap for a company, but that's not what it's all about for the creative people of Apple. $6,000 of your time, meh, we all invest that much in side projects, year after year, if not more frequently than that. 5,000 miles, yeah, so you took a flight, is this supposed t…

Don't forget that some people pay to travel to WWDC out of their own pocket, it's not like it was a trip to someone horrid.
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