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A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

fortune.com

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Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#161

Post by kleer001 »

jneen wrote: post #23
kleer001 wrote: post #13

Yup, sounds like standard fare. I would have been impressed if she'd documented and reported this shitty behaviour. Then again Confrontation is difficult, no matter the context.

As someone who has tried to document and report shitty behavior, it's important to keep in mind how risky that is. Here are a few patterns I've observed: pattern (a) MAN: does shitty thing ; WOMAN: hey please stop; WOMAN's performance review: "has conflicts with MAN" pattern (b) MAN: does shitty thing ; WOMAN: reports shitty thing ; MANAGER: oh MAN is a nice guy, why don't you try working it out yourself pattern (c)…

fair enough, this is especially bad in the milirary... shudder

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#162

Post by modfodder »

totony wrote: post #160
modfodder wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If women had been in power for all of history and used that power to keep men subjugated, yes, I would appreciate calling an office full of women a titfest. History and context matter, unless you are part of the "men's movement".

I don't even know how to answer to that... but I will try. On a post where one desires equality, you reply that people should not be equal (regarding what we can say to them/laugh at them), because people sharing their traits (i.e. gender) did something in the past? So equality, for you, is that we can mock males, but not women (i.e. titfest vs sausagefest), because in the past women have been seen as inferior to men…

It's not just in the past, it is on going, still in these modern times.

If you can't understand what is wrong with the "men's movement", then we are too far apart in idealogy to even have a discussion. I doubt anything I say will sway you, and I'm pretty sure there is nothing you can say to defend the men's movement that will sway me (you are welcome to try if you like). But bringing up the use of the term sausagefest while ignoring the rest of the article is a large problem, the men's movement is all about point out the fly in the china shop while ignoring the fact they are the bull.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#163

Post by totony »

modfodder wrote: post #162
totony wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know how to answer to that... but I will try. On a post where one desires equality, you reply that people should not be equal (regarding what we can say to them/laugh at them), because people sharing their traits (i.e. gender) did something in the past? So equality, for you, is that we can mock males, but not women (i.e. titfest vs sausagefest), because in the past women have been seen as inferior to men…

It's not just in the past, it is on going, still in these modern times. If you can't understand what is wrong with the "men's movement", then we are too far apart in idealogy to even have a discussion. I doubt anything I say will sway you, and I'm pretty sure there is nothing you can say to defend the men's movement that will sway me (you are welcome to try if you like). But bringing up the use of the term sausagefes…

I don't know what is "men's movement", but including me in it to close an argument is VERY poor form.

I'm still curious about your opinion on: "So equality, for you, is that we can mock males, but not women (i.e. titfest vs sausagefest), because in the past women have been seen as inferior to men?"

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#164

Post by modfodder »

totony wrote: post #163
modfodder wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just in the past, it is on going, still in these modern times. If you can't understand what is wrong with the "men's movement", then we are too far apart in idealogy to even have a discussion. I doubt anything I say will sway you, and I'm pretty sure there is nothing you can say to defend the men's movement that will sway me (you are welcome to try if you like). But bringing up the use of the term sausagefes…

I don't know what is "men's movement", but including me in it to close an argument is VERY poor form. I'm still curious about your opinion on: "So equality, for you, is that we can mock males, but not women (i.e. titfest vs sausagefest), because in the past women have been seen as inferior to men?"

You can google "men's rights movement" if you'd like more information and then decide yourself whether you agree with their stance or not.

As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through. So yeah, I don't mind a woman using the term sausagefest, seems only fair when looking back on how men have treated women for much of history.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#165

Post by totony »

modfodder wrote: post #164
totony wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what is "men's movement", but including me in it to close an argument is VERY poor form. I'm still curious about your opinion on: "So equality, for you, is that we can mock males, but not women (i.e. titfest vs sausagefest), because in the past women have been seen as inferior to men?"

You can google "men's rights movement" if you'd like more information and then decide yourself whether you agree with their stance or not. As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through. So yeah, I don't mind a woman using the term sausagefest, seems only fair when looking back on how men have treated women for much of history.

This

>As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through.

Is a ridiculous, unbased statement. I have never seen anything that support such a view.

What you seem to be saying is that, since one group has been unequally treated in the past, we should treat unequally the other group. And you call unequally treating the other group equality.

This conversation is old and is leading to nothing, so this was my last reply. Feel free to reply if you have anything to add/clarify, I will try to read it.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#166

Post by modfodder »

totony wrote: post #165
modfodder wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can google "men's rights movement" if you'd like more information and then decide yourself whether you agree with their stance or not. As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through. So yeah, I don't mind a woman using the term sausagefest, seems only fair when looking back on how men have treated women for much of history.

This >As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through. Is a ridiculous, unbased statement. I have never seen anything that support such a view. What you seem to be saying is that, since one group has been unequally treated in the past, we should treat unequally the other group. And you call unequally treating the other group equality. This conver…

I don't call unequally treating the other group equality, but I don't believe we can get to the land of equality without the privileged walking through the tunnel of oppression.

Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe you have never seen anything to support such a view because your eyes are closed.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#167

Post by totony »

modfodder wrote: post #166
totony wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This >As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through. Is a ridiculous, unbased statement. I have never seen anything that support such a view. What you seem to be saying is that, since one group has been unequally treated in the past, we should treat unequally the other group. And you call unequally treating the other group equality. This conver…

I don't call unequally treating the other group equality, but I don't believe we can get to the land of equality without the privileged walking through the tunnel of oppression. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe you have never seen anything to support such a view because your eyes are closed.

I said that would be my last comment, but I couldn't resist.

"An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

- Ghandi

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#168

Post by modfodder »

modfodder wrote: post #166
totony wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This >As for equality, we'll never be truly equal unless we experience at least some of what the oppressed have lived through. Is a ridiculous, unbased statement. I have never seen anything that support such a view. What you seem to be saying is that, since one group has been unequally treated in the past, we should treat unequally the other group. And you call unequally treating the other group equality. This conver…

I don't call unequally treating the other group equality, but I don't believe we can get to the land of equality without the privileged walking through the tunnel of oppression. Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe you have never seen anything to support such a view because your eyes are closed.

Never said the oppression of the privileged had to equal the prior oppressions, but don't think the privileged snapping their fingers one day and saying it is all o.k. will make it so. You can't abuse a man for decades, set him free and then believe it is all equal.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#169

Post by cmsj »

pen2l wrote: post #101
leif wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>You even seem certain that a stranger on the Internet is part of the problem The stranger on the internet said they felt like part of the problem, so I don't really know what to tell you. If you read between the lines a bit, I never said I had any of the answers. All I said was listen to the people that are affected, try to learn about their problems, and be empathetic, and maybe you'll find the answers. I'm not try…

> All I said was listen to the people that are affected, try to learn about their problems, and be empathetic, and maybe you'll find the answers. Are you aware that one female will have entirely different experiences and suggestions on how to solve tech's sexism problem than the next? E.g., you implicate Vivek Wadwa as being a problem (probably due to Amelia Greenhall's accusations), and yet there are an overwhelming…

More people accepting the problem, reading up on the experiences of those facing discrimination, and thinking about what they can do to change themselves and those around them.

That seems like a pretty good starting point, no?

Whatever you read about, you're going to come up with conflicting opinions and suggestions, so that is hardly new, and is certainly not an excuse for doing nothing.

Re: A female computer science major at Stanford: “Floored” by the sexism

#170

Post by cmsj »

strathmeyer wrote: post #146
dneronique wrote: post #69

I am a female developer about 6 years older than the author. I absolutely love the end of this article: > Slowly but steadily, I am learning to see my dresses and high­-pitched voice not as hurdles to my success, but as symbols of the perspective I bring to the table. This conclusion is fantastic and shows a sense of confidence and maturity that I think all professionals of all genders need to project.

It was difficult to have any clue what she was going on about, except that she expects other people to solve her problems for her and do things for her. I wonder what gave her that idea.

Perhaps the difficulty is in you and you should reflect on that?
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