I don’t know what to do, you guys • Hacker News Board

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#161

Post by Frondo » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:04 PM UTC

stolio wrote: post #141

lern_too_spel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding finding a compromise, I'm sure if Eich donated to equal rights after becoming CEO, nobody would have any qualms working for his organization anymore. Even the pitchforks and the most bloodthirsty protesters would likely have gone. That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. The depth of the thread seems to have reached a HN limit, so I can't resp…

So he was being publicly shamed and humiliated until he A) was fired B) resigned or C) renounced his personal beliefs? That's horrible. When gay people are treated this way I speak out and say it's wrong. When gay people treat people this way I speak out and say it's wrong. > That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. Just because he didn't prostrate hims…

He was shamed for having shameful views, yes. "Personal beliefs" isn't a get-out-of-public-reproach-free card.

No one was compelled by any force of law here, either--he had beliefs that no longer meshed with contemporary views on equality and rights, and his peers, subordinates, and the world at large made it clear they didn't deem this appropriate.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#162

Post by notdonspaulding » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:23 PM UTC

angersock wrote: post #104

yummyfajitas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things. That's not quite it. They're also perceived to be for the expansion of government, more spying, less local and state autonomy, fewer guns, more regulation of businesses, more taxes, more diversity, more equal redistribution of wealth, and less prosecution of criminals. (Now, we'll ignore that on at least the last three points, that's…

    > The left seems to view the opposition as backwards and deserving of contempt,
    > as a group of bumpkins and idiots and sometimes subhuman.

This.

John Oliver, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert each have an amazing ability to use humor/satire as a way to make a point. But I can't hardly watch This Week Tonight without feeling like he's portraying "the other side" in exactly this light. And it's a gimmick. A cheap way to put your viewpoint on display without actually lending any credence to anything your opponent would say (would it be fair to call this tactic an Ad Hominem?).

The sad part is, I get the impression that the generation who are now in their 20's and 30's have grown up knowing only this kind of "political discourse". They don't recognize that by sheltering their ideas from opposition in this way their viewpoints remain intellectually weak and stunted.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#163

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:34 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #37

vacri wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth remembering that one advantage right-side politics have is that they are passionate for the status quo. Left-side politics are passionate for change. And it's when people are passionate that they get into disagreement; it's much easier for lefties to disagree about what kind of change they want, than for righties to disagree about how they want things to stay the same...

This is an odd view. Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy. (In reality they are prevented from doing this, of course.) In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

> Right wing politics in the US claims to lean toward reducing/dismantling SS and the welfare state, radically changing immigration and education policy.

That's not generally true. Right wing politics usually claims its for the first two things, and one form of the last, but generally opposes substantial reforms of immigration policy in favor of more stringent enforcement of existing laws.

> In contrast, left wing politicians just want to throw more money at the same things.

Incorrect. "Liberal" politicians in the US favor substantial reforms to immigration policy, healthcare policy (though perhaps less so at the moment, given that they recently achieved a fairly major restructuring in that domain, though there are plenty that would drive further), and, in many cases, reforms to the structure of SS, welfare state systems, and taxation structure. In a very different direction than right-wing politicians seek to change them.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#164

Post by xlm1717 » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:34 PM UTC

I take it he doesn't agree that mentally beating an ideology into impressionable young minds is the way to turn people to the left-wing.

But it has worked so well so far!

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#165

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:52 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #122

gone35 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Currently [...] teachers [...] occupy a strong position in the social order. So do government dependents ." [Emphasis added] Interesting --maybe I'm misunderstanding your claim. Can you clarify what you mean by "occupy a strong position in the social order", and outline your evidence for such a belief?

Witness how difficult and ineffective policies to ensure accountability for teachers and eliminate the bad ones are. Consider the difficulty in reducing dependency programs (e.g., SS, Medicare) - these are political non-starters due to old people voting. On the cultural front, note how difficult it is even to criticize teachers or government dependents. Consider the media reaction when Romney correctly pointed out th…

> Witness how difficult and ineffective policies to ensure accountability for teachers and eliminate the bad ones are.

I've yet to see any policy sold under that banner that had any reason to believe it would achieve that end: all have either been proposals to increase the degree of arbitrary latitude granted elected politicians and appointed administrators and/or policies imposing measures as standards that have no demonstrated validity as measuring teacher performance as distinct from other factors that might affect the students in that teacher's classroom, including (particularly) the degree of administrative support for that teacher. Usually, most proposals have included both of those features.

I haven't opposed them because teachers oppose them -- though no doubt they do -- I oppose them because I am opposed to wasting public money on measures that have no rational expectation of success and I am opposed to decreasing accountability for school administrators.

> Or think for a moment about any policy which might reduce the status of either group - for example, partially replacing teachers with machines, or shaming people on welfare. How do you think such a policy would be received?

The latter with well-deserved derision from much of the public (and plenty of support from most of the right, probably), the former would depend on the specifics -- plenty of functions teachers have done have been partially replaced by machines over the years with broad support.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#166

Post by xlm1717 » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 3:58 PM UTC

deciplex wrote: post #119

angersock wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the most annoying places to be right now is to have sympathies with both sides of these issues and to try to discuss things rationally and evenly. Simple example: I've got two good friends, one of them on one side of the GamerGate nonsense, and one on the other. I have to be very careful chatting with them, because while they each separately are very articulate and reasoned in their arguments, I cannot even pr…

My reaction to Gamergate was to continue playing video games and to continue not reading 'Games Journalism' because I already knew it was payola garbage. As for your friends my suggestion would be to discuss other shared interests. It's possible - even common - for both 'sides' of an issue to be way off the mark.

This is the most rational reaction.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#167

Post by lern_too_spel » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 4:03 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #151

lern_too_spel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding finding a compromise, I'm sure if Eich donated to equal rights after becoming CEO, nobody would have any qualms working for his organization anymore. Even the pitchforks and the most bloodthirsty protesters would likely have gone. That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. The depth of the thread seems to have reached a HN limit, so I can't resp…

> Regarding finding a compromise, I'm sure if Eich donated to equal rights after becoming CEO, nobody would have any qualms working for his organization anymore. Even the pitchforks and the most bloodthirsty protesters would likely have gone. That he didn't even try to correct the issue Eich contributed to the creation of the equal rights policy in Mozilla and worked to enforce that inclusive policy. He made a commit…

Quoting from my previous post: "A CEO who has worked to set up Sharia law will have a hard time getting people who support women's rights working for him even if he treats his own women employees fairly."

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#168

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 4:03 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #151

lern_too_spel wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding finding a compromise, I'm sure if Eich donated to equal rights after becoming CEO, nobody would have any qualms working for his organization anymore. Even the pitchforks and the most bloodthirsty protesters would likely have gone. That he didn't even try to correct the issue made it more likely that progressive coders would turn away. The depth of the thread seems to have reached a HN limit, so I can't resp…

> Regarding finding a compromise, I'm sure if Eich donated to equal rights after becoming CEO, nobody would have any qualms working for his organization anymore. Even the pitchforks and the most bloodthirsty protesters would likely have gone. That he didn't even try to correct the issue Eich contributed to the creation of the equal rights policy in Mozilla and worked to enforce that inclusive policy. He made a commit…

[deleted]

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#169

Post by stormbrew » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 4:46 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #90

stormbrew wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's incorrect to say that right wing politics are specifically about maintaining the status quo, but that does tend to be the effect of their policies, regardless of how much they change the law "lines of code" style, as pointed out by a sibling post. But what right wing politics are about is maintaining the social order. Ensuring that wealth stays with the wealthy, power remains with the powerful, and…

On the contrary, right wing politics seem to be about replacing the current social order. Currently academics, teachers and other govt bureaucrats occupy a strong position in the social order. So do government dependents. This is the status quo. Right wing politics wants to reduce the position of those groups and elevate the position of workers, business leaders and those who embody traditional christian values. That…

Your description of reality here is almost diametrically opposed to any reality I've ever experienced. The idea that elevating business leaders and people with christian values is something that alters the status quo, in particular, seems particularly absurd -- their influence on the social order is practically apex.

I'd also be really curious to hear why you think they're in support of 'workers', to which I assume you mean something different from a normal definition of 'working class'. I'm not really aware of any right wing political policy that works in their favour.

But all of that aside, you again conflate changing the status quo with changing the social order. Obviously the right wing seeks some kind of change in the status quo (else why organize at all), but that change is to reinforce the social order or establish one that is in line with their views. The fact that you're talking about elevating a particular class of people is in itself a right wing, social-order oriented, concept.

Left wing politics are generally about dismantling social order altogether -- not just the current one, but the very existence of one. You can easily argue about how successful they've been, especially in the more radical efforts, but that remains their pie-in-the-sky goal. You may also argue with the idea that such a thing is even possible. That is itself a right wing axiom.

Re: I don’t know what to do, you guys

#170

Post by davesque » Fri, Jan 30, 2015, 4:54 PM UTC

jsprogrammer wrote: post #113

Meekro wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know what you mean! I've been a supporter of gay marriage for my whole life. But when the Brendan Eich thing happened, I was stunned. The "good" side of this fight was acting more evil than the "evil" side. What terrified me most was reading the ArsTechnica forum and seeing the majority cheering for his downfall, and totally ignoring the dangerous precedent that a person could be fired for donating to the wrong bal…

Brendan. Wasn't fired; resigned, but could have stayed on. Everyone has the right to choose their leader (if they even want one).

You know, the fact that this post was down-voted is actually a great example of the phenomenon being discussed here. Opposing views are met with hostility.

I really think HN needs a lesson on down-arrow usage.