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Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

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Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#161

Post by johnward »

aridiculous wrote: post #133
hnriot wrote: post #106

interesting to read all these from the engineer's perspective. from the manager's side of the table things are quite different. If an employee comes to me and asks for a raise then I begin the process to replace them. We give reasonable raises, we pay fair market value and an engineer might make a little more elsewhere but they'll be giving back their RSUs and the opportunity to work on really cool stuff. If, however…

I'm really perplexed by this common attitude. Employees are sometimes happy. Sometimes they're miserable. Sometimes they're in-between — for complicated reasons, that may lie outside of work. Firing any employee that asks for a raise is so unbelievably short-sighted, binary, sociopathic, and potentially bad for business (morale, replacement costs, unknown costs), it's cartoonishly villainous. You sir, appear to have…

Yeah sounds like exactly the kind of place I wouldn't want to work anyway.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#162

Post by johnward »

ddingus wrote: post #120
hnriot wrote: post #106

interesting to read all these from the engineer's perspective. from the manager's side of the table things are quite different. If an employee comes to me and asks for a raise then I begin the process to replace them. We give reasonable raises, we pay fair market value and an engineer might make a little more elsewhere but they'll be giving back their RSUs and the opportunity to work on really cool stuff. If, however…

Another manager here. I don't automatically do this. I want to know why, and what their value proposition is. People have things happen and reasons and goals for wanting to change their comp, and frankly, that goes both ways. I've had people want less and to change roles for very similar reasons. Replacement is expensive, so is commitment and vision. For some people, yes. It's a trigger for replacement. For others, i…

What would you say if the "value proposition" is simply Company Y will pay me more?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#163

Post by jasonwocky »

gaius wrote: post #136
jasonwocky wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, to be fair, there's also a chance of getting more value.

Well, you are talking about risk adjusted return there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_%28investment%29

Sure, I just thought that the parent was only presenting one side of the math.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#164

Post by vinceguidry »

hnriot wrote: post #102
vinceguidry wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a $15K raise last month, from $60 to $75K. I expect a much bigger one next year. It's not impossible to get those raises, but you have to align your thinking with the way the company operates, have supporters in the company, and bring real value to the table. If you're just checking boxes or asking for more money "just because", then you deserve the arched eyebrow you're bound to get.

a 25% raise is unlikely next year, sounds to me that this was more of a salary adjustment than a raise which are typically between 3-9%. At your salary level it's not uncommon to have adjustments to bring you in line with others in your team. Possibly they started you low to see how it would work out.

Whatever you want to call it, I expect a bigger one next year.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#165

Post by mattbrewsbytes »

dustingetz wrote: post #73

here's an idea: The market for developers is a lemon's market. That means, if you have 100 good cars selling at $2000, and 100 lemon cars selling at $1000, all the lemons will sell first, because the people making purchasing decisions aren't expert enough to tell the difference. So it is very rare to be paid based on value, because why would a [CEO|CTO|hiring manager|whatever] pay $1M for this guy, when he can pay $1…

Interesting perspective on it. The comparison seems valid to me since it will take probably 3-6 months to really know if you ended up with a lemon of an employee. That is if the manager can tell the difference. Obviously excluding a bad hire/non-match which would be obvious in week 1 or 2.

When I think about this perspective, another way to state it is that maybe the work being done doesn't actually need the costly person?

Back to the car analogy, if your requirements are to drive 5-10 miles per day do you need a luxury car with GPS, sound system, leather, headlight wipers, etc.? Or can you use a beat up car that might be a lemon that mostly works? And when the beat up car has problems you get another one. This seems to be the approach larger companies (emp_count > 5000) take since they want to commoditize the work and make the employees completely replaceable.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#166

Post by jerguismi »

kephra wrote: post #156
vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

I have to agree, and even add: Never tell them first what you what want as payment. My method was always to say: Lets delay this unimportant money question. I'm a coder, I want to talk about coding, about your company culture, about your projects, about your testing environments, ... all those are much more important to me then salary. And when they come out with a price tag finally I often tell: Well thats a nice sa…

Sounds nice, but I would make a big difference between being a contractor and an employee. Where I live, hiring contractors is much less risky (because of employment laws etc), therefore for contractors it is quite natural to pay more. I'm an employer myself.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#167

Post by jerguismi »

vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

Btw, I've heard exactly the opposite. That by giving a number first-hand, you can anchor the price point, and therefore gain an edge. What about giving them a number, what kind of salary you would except, instead of giving the number how much you earn now?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#168

Post by xienze »

vinceguidry wrote: post #164
hnriot wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a 25% raise is unlikely next year, sounds to me that this was more of a salary adjustment than a raise which are typically between 3-9%. At your salary level it's not uncommon to have adjustments to bring you in line with others in your team. Possibly they started you low to see how it would work out.

Whatever you want to call it, I expect a bigger one next year.

So, just curious, but what makes you so confident you'll be getting back-to-back massive payraises? And when do you think it'll stop?

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#169

Post by GFischer »

vinceguidry wrote: post #92
NinjaTime wrote: post #44

Another B.S. article about negotiating IT salary's. If IT salary's kept pace back before the Dot bomb days everyone would be making 150k starting. Here is why we don't IT has for the most part never been a money maker of a lot of companies. They see it as a loss leader. IT is seen as the "Oh boy here comes the IT budget again." Unless of course your business is making software for the masses. But then I have been at…

I got a $15K raise last month, from $60 to $75K. I expect a much bigger one next year. It's not impossible to get those raises, but you have to align your thinking with the way the company operates, have supporters in the company, and bring real value to the table. If you're just checking boxes or asking for more money "just because", then you deserve the arched eyebrow you're bound to get.

You're in the U.S.?

By reading Hacker News I had the impression that everyone there that is not a junior is making at least U$100k/year, except for special cases in rural areas or small towns.

Re: Salary negotiations for techies (2011)

#170

Post by lllllll »

vproman wrote: post #144

The most important salary negotiation tip: DON'T TELL THEM HOW MUCH YOU ARE CURRENTLY BEING PAID OR GIVE THEM A RANGE. Recruiters always ask this up front and INSIST that they must know. I have NEVER been denied the opportunity to interview for refusing to give a number upfront. If you're applying at a company, it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewher…

it means you've done at least a little research on what they should be expected to pay and you see somewhere around that range as acceptable. You don't have to tell them that you've researched their rates and find them acceptable

If you find your research is repeatedly off the mark, find better sources.

I'd be very much interested in what are you sources/methodology to carry out this research. I mean, if the company you are applying to is big and well-known ( and listed in glassdoor, angel list, etc), I may have a chance to figure out the rates. However even in the case of known companies, I often cannot find the salary information and instead I'm left with the classic competitive pay/salary/compensation.

Finding out these rates for each company is even harder if you want to be hired as a contractor.

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