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What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

paulgraham.com

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Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#161

Post by Retra »

chubot wrote: post #129
Retra wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could console yourself in the knowledge that, if one is to divide the world at all, one must first divide it in two. The really trick is to keep dividing, and not get stuck at the first thought you have.

I think it would be more helpful if you actually said what you think, rather than making vague objections to something I didn't say. It would make for a much better conversation.

I'm not objecting to anything you've said. I'm just reflecting on it. I don't think I'm being vague either, just a bit abstract.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#162

Post by kizer »

dxbydt wrote: post #38

This excerpt - "what he really liked was solving problems. The text of each chapter was just some advice about solving them. He said that as soon as he got a new textbook he'd immediately work out all the problems—to the slight annoyance of his teacher, since the class was supposed to work through the book gradually." is literally me. I did that. Every year at my school I did exactly that. Once I actually turned in m…

Would you say that working out those problems has given you a solid fluency in math, in that you spend little to no time now on approaching a new problem? I want to develop a strong intuitional base in math, and from what I've read solving problems is the way to go.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#163

Post by cfallin »

ashark wrote: post #110
stegosaurus wrote: post #75

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

Anytime I read one of those "just do what you're passionate about!" posts, or job postings that read like "we're looking for people who are passionate about [thing that literally no-one has ever been passionate about]" I try to think whether there's anything whatsoever that I'd enjoy (let alone stay passionate about) doing (at least) 40 hours a week, 49ish weeks a year. I haven't thought of anything yet. Left to my o…

> Left to my own devices, I'd probably spend 100 hours one week programming, then not touch a computer for two or three weeks, reading or building something or doing stuff outdoors instead.

Such a level of autonomy would be fantastic for a bunch of people (myself included!). The opposite extreme -- a continuous drudge of exactly 40 hours/week -- is pretty scary, because the work itself would have to be pretty mundane to be so predictably reliable. At some level, really creative and difficult problem-solving does have such burstiness built in.

But... one thing I've found in the process of matching "natural burstiness" with "externally-imposed stable output rate" is that sometimes, the drudgery is useful too. When I'm stuck in an unproductive state, continuing to do something helps to unstick me. Creative inspiration is sort of a positive feedback loop, where just taking a step (any step!) and trying something helps to fill me with ideas for next steps and alternatives. So I'm not exactly pleased about deadlines, or external pressure, but some pressure or goal (internally-imposed is best) is really helpful for me. There are still bursts and lulls but the lulls become more disciplined and useful somehow.

Of course, all of that is assuming that there's some interesting creative kernel to the work. If someone's complaining that 40 hours/week of CRUD apps is just not floating their boat... well... they've got deeper problems. :-)

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#164

Post by ArkyBeagle »

soup10 wrote: post #61
Iftheshoefits wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Math is certainly required to understand the theory and to synthesize experimental observations into a working model, but I wouldn't put it at more than 50-60%. Most of the math is fairly basic relatively speaking, even at the highest levels of physics.

Relative to what lol. What other applied field has more advanced math?

I didn't get that far in math, but in physics classes after Junior Physics Lab , I once or twice questioned the assumptions. There's always a theorem you don't know about.

There is a lot to math.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#166

Post by ArkyBeagle »

stegosaurus wrote: post #75

What if the idea of work itself is what you dislike? There are plenty of activities I can enjoy, and some, quite a few of them in fact, are profitable. Once you shoe-horn them into the power dynamic situation of a traditional job (with the bureaucracy that entails unless you're dealing with Actual People as opposed to corporations), suddenly a lot of the luster disappears. As a ridiculous example - I enjoy reading. I…

So treat the drones as Actual People. You'll be surprised. It... doesn't always work, but it's worth a shot.

I think the perception that it's "submission" is a framing problem. (s)He has his problems, you have yours. You probably don't want his. I have at times gotten way too close to being the boss; I don't want it unless it's a very narrow situation.

If it's actual submission, then I can't help you. I just don't last in those.

My boss gets my respect and dare I say - loyalty ( far as it goes ) - because I sympathize with the sort of insanity (s)he is likely dealing with. If you think of things as an opportunity to serve others, your own problems melt away, and you got to score a few points against the dread lord Entropy for the day.

"What can I do to help?" Even if it's ... ludicrous, Panglossian even, it's the best way to keep the stiff upper lip and make the best of the day.

I am thinking that Mr. Mark Twain had something to say on this subject... what was that book?.. ah, "Tom Sawyer". Something about a fence...

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#167

Post by giis »

>The stranger your tastes seem to other people, the stronger evidence they probably are of what you should do.

Completely agree. I came across similar thing 5 or 6 years back. When one-of my co-worker called me to debug/show a problem with his website-download module to export data as spreadsheet. The data came as some junk characters,even though site-page shows proper data and db-records are fine too.

I clearly remember the following conversion.When I tried, I also got spreadsheet with unreadable chars, and I said, "nice,that's interesting!!" and my co-worker laughed and responded "what? is this interesting???"

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#168

Post by risk000 »

stegosaurus wrote: post #115
ashark wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anytime I read one of those "just do what you're passionate about!" posts, or job postings that read like "we're looking for people who are passionate about [thing that literally no-one has ever been passionate about]" I try to think whether there's anything whatsoever that I'd enjoy (let alone stay passionate about) doing (at least) 40 hours a week, 49ish weeks a year. I haven't thought of anything yet. Left to my o…

Indeed. For me it's not so much the absolute requirements (i.e. 8 hours a day, these specific hours, can't do anything else within that time) but rather the subordinate aspect of having no control over that. The way in which it's just the only option for seemingly _no reason_. It's totally arbitrary. I'd love to work a job where I could say, choose three days a week to work (or alternatively have 100 days holiday, re…

Thanks Stegosaurus, for articulating so well what I have also been strongly feeling about work.

I liked this part especially: "For me it's not so much the absolute requirements (i.e. 8 hours a day, these specific hours, can't do anything else within that time) but rather the subordinate aspect of having no control over that."

I would restate that in my own way as follows:

I consider myself thirsty for life, thirsty and desirous of enjoying my life experiences. Once someone has put me under contractual obligation to 'just do x' for a significant slice of my life, its really set into motion the pendulum's swing in the other direction: How can I not, almost immediately, begin to subconsciously yearn for the day when I can live differently? Whatever it is, whether its an office commute or even a lax remote job (hard to admit in the latter case), whether I'm building widgets or contributing to a huge multi-application 'Widgetron', confine me and you all but guarantee that one day I will seek release from you. It may take years, but thats life for me.

I don't think our society has achieved ethics yet, hasn't yet demonstrably earned ethical values for itself. And freedom is a value that is even higher or more rarified than ethics or the golden rule. In place of that we have a rampant survival ethos, with bits of social status signaling / prestige-mongering thrown in. Asking for self-determination in this environment can appear at times like walking into a soup kitchen and requesting their finest tiramisu. How dare you be so bold, slave?

And yet, nothing can stop me from trying.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#169

Post by returnofdjedi »

giis wrote: post #167

>The stranger your tastes seem to other people, the stronger evidence they probably are of what you should do. Completely agree. I came across similar thing 5 or 6 years back. When one-of my co-worker called me to debug/show a problem with his website-download module to export data as spreadsheet. The data came as some junk characters,even though site-page shows proper data and db-records are fine too. I clearly reme…

Maybe if the owner said it's intresting to his employee, the employee would try to go deep into the problem and figure out the flaws.Henry Ford did that too.

Re: What Doesn't Seem Like Work?

#170

Post by sbrother »

peterjancelis wrote: post #151
sedachv wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> fields, rings, groups, and all sorts of things. Each of those is just a definition and a handful (literally like 5 or 6) of axioms. If I memorized the axioms and a few key theorems I could usually derive everything else in the homework and on the exams. Most mathematical objects have very similar structure and the rest is just maps (morphisms) between them. > Oh and those greek letters. That's actually a very valid…

> Most mathematical objects have very similar structure and the rest is just maps (morphisms) between them. Is there a book covering this topic that you can recommend?

I'm going through this book right now, and I'm a pretty big fan so far: http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Category-Theory-Harold-Si...
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