Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#161

Post by lmz » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 12:12 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #159

tokenadult wrote: post #88

I'll reply to a specific comment already made as a subcomment here, to comment about the larger issues that have come up in several top-level replies in this thread. I don't think such a hypothesis is awkward but I doubt high IQ as an excellent predictor for an individuals performance in tasks that are not IQ tests. As a layman when it comes to psychology I think IQ measures some things but the way the brain works, n…

there is a HUGE body of research to show that the single best hiring process you can use for hiring a worker The best process, assuming you have to use a single process for every job in the world? Or the best process even when hiring for a specific role? I can understand IQ being the best choice if you had to judge poets, plumbers, town planners, golf instructors, programmers, salespeople and warehouse workers using…

As was written above:

> Work-sample tests are also very good for hiring for specific jobs, and are grossly underused in hiring in the United States.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#162

Post by hga » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 12:28 PM UTC

throw_away wrote: post #86

kefka wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, Scheme.. You must be an Indiana University grad. Only school I know that uses Scheme that much.

Lots of top schools use scheme (via SICP). Cal, Stanford and MIT all do (or at least did when I was an undergrad).

After the dot.com bust cratered EECS enrollment (down by more than half after being steady for decades), MIT revised its curriculum and completely purged Scheme from it (or at least the required parts). It's all Python and Java now :-(.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#163

Post by walshemj » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 1:05 PM UTC

kasey_junk wrote: post #100

walshemj wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should if you are going into a CE or CS course not have learnt to code at school before going to university English lit or classics students are expected to be able to read. I learnt to program when I was 13 and that was in the middle stream at my upper school

This is highly dependent on your opportunity. As hard as it is to find qualified math and english teachers prior to the college level, think how hard it would be to find programming instruction. That is to say, when I was in school before university there was no choice for studying programming . There was but it was offered at a private religious school/camp, not via the public schools.

This was in a comprehensive i.e. a bog standard school and was in the middle i.e. vocational stream - possibly the approach of having specialisation at the middle and upper school works better for feeding children into UNI/Vocational track.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#164

Post by walshemj » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 1:15 PM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #140

kasey_junk wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm terrible at spatial reasoning but have no problem with formal logic. I'd also like to think I have strong programming ability (of course we don't know how to measure that). Spatial reasoning is a key mathematical ability for certain classes of problems (a big chunk of calculus as you mention) but helps not at all with another big class of mathematics (set theory for instance). Finally, to you data structures are…

I'm sure my bias plays a role, but I would disagree that there's nothing spatial about data structures. Linked lists, trees, heaps, etc, all have the characteristic property of a geometric interpretation: a natural notion of "distance" inherent in their definitions.

Set Theory?

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#165

Post by bitplanets » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 2:06 PM UTC

jacalata wrote: post #135

bitplanets wrote: post #75

Why do you care about it in the first place? Also what is your definition of good programmer? Just make a function? Make a class? Make a big app? IMO you don't need to learn too much math before programming to be a good programmer. Basic operations are good enough, if you need more you learn as you go, you'll never know what you need. Lazy learning, like lazy variable loading. The test you are making are more like pr…

>why do you care about it in the first place? Also what is your definition of good programmer? Is this a joke? They care because they are selecting applicants to a programming boot camp and want to select the ones more likely to be successful. I suppose they could make all of the applicants learn to program and select the best ones, but there could be issues with that. And they are pretty clear that they are defining…

>They care because they are selecting applicants to a programming boot camp and want to select the ones more likely to be successful.

Just make a programming test. IMO is more certain than relying on knowing algebra well or not. But I don't have any data to show you, is just me thinking about it.

>Prove it.

I can't, you are right. I just said what I was thinking.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#166

Post by skywhopper » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 2:26 PM UTC

I'll only comment on the opening line and the research it points to about the failure rate in intro to Computer Science. The author of the codeup piece immediately jumps to the conclusion that it's an inability on the part of the failing students to be able to learn to program (a detail that the study linked doesn't comment on). However, my first reaction is that if the failure rate is higher than we want, it means we either (1) aren't teaching the class well; or (2) the students are coming in without proper preparation.

Many students coming into an intro to CS class are already programming whizzes, and then there are others who have no experience with programming at all. So, already the instructor is in an impossible situation. Do you bore the promising kids with the major head start, risking losing future good students? Or do you ramp the class up to their speed and risk losing the kids who didn't come in already knowing the material? Obviously, most departments and instructors will, wittingly or not, choose the latter.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#167

Post by michaelt » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 2:33 PM UTC

lmz wrote: post #161

michaelt wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is a HUGE body of research to show that the single best hiring process you can use for hiring a worker The best process, assuming you have to use a single process for every job in the world? Or the best process even when hiring for a specific role? I can understand IQ being the best choice if you had to judge poets, plumbers, town planners, golf instructors, programmers, salespeople and warehouse workers using…

As was written above: > Work-sample tests are also very good for hiring for specific jobs, and are grossly underused in hiring in the United States.

But isn't essentially all hiring for a specific job?

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#168

Post by tokenadult » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 3:05 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #167

lmz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As was written above: > Work-sample tests are also very good for hiring for specific jobs, and are grossly underused in hiring in the United States.

But isn't essentially all hiring for a specific job?

Industrial and organizational psychologists have researched this issue, with hundreds of studies spanning most different kinds of jobs in most developed countries now published. A work-sample test is especially strong for spotting people who need to do something right away after they are hired. For any worker who may need to learn new things on the job--and that is a lot of different kinds of workers, in a lot of different industries, and almost all managers--a "general mental ability" test adds to the predictive validity of selection applicants who will do well on the job over time as industry conditions and market pressures and technologies change.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#169

Post by kasey_junk » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 3:37 PM UTC

walshemj wrote: post #163

kasey_junk wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is highly dependent on your opportunity. As hard as it is to find qualified math and english teachers prior to the college level, think how hard it would be to find programming instruction. That is to say, when I was in school before university there was no choice for studying programming . There was but it was offered at a private religious school/camp, not via the public schools.

This was in a comprehensive i.e. a bog standard school and was in the middle i.e. vocational stream - possibly the approach of having specialisation at the middle and upper school works better for feeding children into UNI/Vocational track.

Right, so the bog standard schools you had the opportunity to attend offered something mine (and many others) do not. As someone who is always looking for good developers I certainly don't want to limit the number of people who can learn CS to only those who happened to live somewhere that offered programming at the public school level.

Re: Can a simple algebra test predict programming aptitude?

#170

Post by rimantas » Sat, Dec 13, 2014, 4:03 PM UTC

Morgawr wrote: post #61

If there is one thing that has always bothered me, is people evaluating student's prowess in "Computer Science" (which is not programming, shame on you) by having them learn your normal run-of-the-mill programming language/paradigm like Javascript, Python, PHP and whatnot and then claim they are not apt to program because they cannot solve problems or handle variables, mutability, etc etc. There are A LOT of differen…

"Differently wired" wired brain is the ability to manipulate abstractions. Which is required no matter what kind of programming language you use. And it also required for doing algebra.