Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

blog.mozilla.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 206 posts

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#161

Post by cbhl »

justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

In my mind, if you look at the sheer number of people who self-XSS themselves on Facebook and Google, that the average user shouldn't be able to trigger a JavaScript Console seems like a logical conclusion to me.

Is it condescending? Yes. Does it make the barrier to entry in programming higher? Yes, but considering that properly debugging a web application on a tablet seems to require a separate laptop connected at the same time (with admin privileges to install whatever crazy USB drivers), I'd say that barrier is already high enough that the kid can figure out how to download $DEVELOPER_FIREFOX.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#162

Post by Yoric »

dombili wrote: post #145

I wonder if they'll remove (or at least most of it) developer tools from the main browser and try to get developers to use this version. Common criticism of Firefox these days is it feels (and in most cases is) slower and more bloated than Chrome. This move could help Mozilla make FF faster, no?

Well, the main advantage that Chrome has vs Firefox is not speed (these days, Firefox is faster than Chrome on most benchmarks I have seen), but smoothness, which is largely due to the multi-process architecture of Chrome.

Developer tools have strictly no influence on this, and the multi-process version of Firefox is currently being tested. I don't remember whether there is an ETA.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#163

Post by Yoric »

cromwellian wrote: post #131
Yoric wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the FileSystem API is still being worked on. Just quite different from what Chrome implemented (which was very Unix-centric, iirc).

Well, that's good to hear. My concern is, we need APIs that are predictable, straightforward, and easy to use for devs to create offline web apps. Right now, it's quite difficult, and hence hardly anyone does it. ServiceWorker may help a lot with one part of the equation, but it doesn't fix up the persistent storage story of the Web. I find the IndexDB API maddening to use personally.

Agreed on all accounts.

I seem to remember that the current WIP is here: http://w3c.github.io/filesystem-api/Overview.html

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#164

Post by spion »

cromwellian wrote: post #131
Yoric wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the FileSystem API is still being worked on. Just quite different from what Chrome implemented (which was very Unix-centric, iirc).

Well, that's good to hear. My concern is, we need APIs that are predictable, straightforward, and easy to use for devs to create offline web apps. Right now, it's quite difficult, and hence hardly anyone does it. ServiceWorker may help a lot with one part of the equation, but it doesn't fix up the persistent storage story of the Web. I find the IndexDB API maddening to use personally.

Its not just you, it is maddening to use. A sane wrapper is mandatory.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#166

Post by andrewchambers »

Joeri wrote: post #136
hrktb wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point, but I think there is a reality where developing and actually experiencing the product can be fundamentally different. For instance the security model for a browser should be ultra tight and protect the user from the site, but as a developer I'd want to access and modify my files directly through the inspector panel. Another example would be the use of cache, where I want the minimum possible r…

I don't quite see it that way. > For instance the security model for a browser should be ultra tight and protect the user from the site, but as a developer I'd want to access and modify my files directly through the inspector panel. I don't see any inherent conflict between preventing sites from having access to the local filesystem, while having powerful local filesystem access from the browser's integrated devtools…

Its not always caches being out of date, what about reproducing bugs that happen on page load? Sometimes you just need to force a fetch.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#168

Post by userbinator »

cbhl wrote: post #161
justcommenting wrote: post #71

This seems to reinforce the mindset that the web should be experienced and built using different tools for users vs. developers, and aside from thinking that's fundamentally condescending, I don't see why new tools couldn't simply be extended from FF's 'web developer' menu into a different mode of operation or even extensions. I think we're better off in a world where kids don't have to install ScaryFox on their tabl…

In my mind, if you look at the sheer number of people who self-XSS themselves on Facebook and Google, that the average user shouldn't be able to trigger a JavaScript Console seems like a logical conclusion to me. Is it condescending? Yes. Does it make the barrier to entry in programming higher? Yes, but considering that properly debugging a web application on a tablet seems to require a separate laptop connected at t…

No, those who self-XSS are following the path of ignorance, which only leads to more of the same. What's next, not allowing users to type in a URL in the address bar because they could visit a malicious site? (Remember when Chrome decided to hide the full URL?) Mollycoddling users will lead to a significant loss of freedom and the vicious cycle will never end as they increasingly think everyone else will "protect" them from themselves, leaving all the -- possibly important -- decisions to someone else. Trying to make it impossible for users to make mistakes will also make it difficult for them to learn anything.

The "I don't know what this piece of code does, but I'll run it anyway without even so much as Googling" mentality is what needs to change, if we are to have better netizens. You don't need to be an expert to know what JavaScript is and what it can do. Despite the Internet being such an easily-accessible body of knowledge, and the influence it has on our lives, it's quite disappointing that people have generally not become more knowledgeable of it and instead are mostly consumers like they were before with TV and radio.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#169

Post by SiVal »

justcommenting wrote: post #102
kisielk wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the problem? The users can just download the same browser if they're really interested in the additional functionality.

Instead of working to ensure that my parents' computer running Windows 3.1 shipped with a C compiler by default a few decades ago, people inside Microsoft and Borland were probably thinking the same thing. This line of thinking is basically the reason I had to wait a few more years until I could buy my own computer that could run Linux as a teenager. For lots of people, the world is a very different place now, but ju…

I agree that defaults are powerful, which is why a potential developer who can't figure out how to download a browser and has nobody around to help will either be using IE or Safari anyway. Anyone who can get a copy of Firefox installed can get another browser installed a LOT more easily than he could figure out how to USE any of the dev features.

The number of potential developers who COULD get Firefox downloaded but COULDN'T figure out how to get a second browser downloaded, yet who COULD figure out how to use the dev features if only they were in Firefox is a tiny fraction of the non-developers who would be confused and annoyed by having dev features they don't want cluttering their interfaces by default.

Re: The First Browser Dedicated to Developers Is Coming

#170

Post by jonnyscholes »

This is the first time I've ever found a roadblock when looking at the inner workings of FF/Mozilla - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1054353

Even their etherpads/sprint sheets/team chat logs are public. Not necessarily saying the bug SHOULD be public, just thought it was intriguing. Makes me wonder what other - if any - bugs are private (excluding security ones of course).

Post reply on HN