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What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

rw.runnersworld.com

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Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#161

Post by Ndiku »

bagacrap wrote: post #129
nl wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So.... Yes, it seems likely that drugs have been a factor in the increased speed of distance runners. Sadly, the testing procedures for athletics are notably worse that for cycling (especially in the offseason). However running does have one critical difference compared to cycling that gives a small glimmer of possibility that some runners might be clean and competitive with dirty runner. In running, "running economy…

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the reason Kenyans dominate at long distance running is that their national ADA (anti doping agency) doesn't enforce the rules. It's starting to come apart at the seams though: http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/doping-probe-spurs-kenyas-...

No, the reason they dominate marathon running is because prize money is huge (by their standards of living) and has exploded in the last 30 years. Americans and Europeans have gone BACKWARDS since the 80's, as the sport is longer popular.

Here is an actual informative documentary (unlike your article which reads like it's from TMZ):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGVSO1sg2Fk

Your article doesn't talk about any top Kenyan runners. The only Kenyans that have been caught doping in recent years (yes they do get tested) are third-tier Kenyans, usually without education, thinking (or being persuaded by doctors) that it will get them to the top level, which it never does.

I don't see any evidence that Kipsang, Kimetto, Mutai, or Makau ever used drugs, or anyone even claiming to be in the know that they used.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#162

Post by Ndiku »

wging wrote: post #136
outside1234 wrote: post #11

Better drugs than they are currently on. Nobody wants to admit it, but that is the real reason for the change in inflection of the line. See cycling.

Not really. EPO testing is now possible; it wasn't in the 1990s. That's why we saw dramatic increases in performance on the track in the 1990s. The real reason is more financial: see the graph of prize money referenced in the article, and also take a look at the current state of track 10,000m racing. More top talent is attracted to the marathon, away from the longer track races, than before.

We saw dramatic increases in performances on the track in the 90's because that's when the African training camps were formed. Instead of one Henry Rono suddenly there were 100. Though I wouldn't deny EPO use was rampant, times didn't slow down either once the EPO tests came out, so I think its effect was exaggerated.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#164

Post by Balgair »

bagacrap wrote: post #132
Balgair wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I wonder what the long term effects of these drugs are. Medicinal and therapeutic use may be very promising for average people just trying to stay in shape. If the long term effects aren't too terrible, say like that of coffee, then greater acceptance may be possible. Also, as toward the 2 hour marathon, drugs that are psychoactive may be of as great a benefit as the physical ones. Not just caffeine and other pl…

1 - coffee is not a placebo, caffeine is one of few ergogenic aids that's been often proven to have real benefits via double blind trials. 2 - if you legalize drugs then you require drugs (of anybody who wants to be competitive). Literally all professional cyclists use all the drugs they're allowed, and some they are not. On terms of caffeine this takes the form of a megadose towards the end of a race delivered via a…

1- Yeah, sorry, crummy writing.

2- Ewwww....

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#165

Post by thesz »

dpatrick86 wrote: post #109
Balgair wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I wonder what the long term effects of these drugs are. Medicinal and therapeutic use may be very promising for average people just trying to stay in shape. If the long term effects aren't too terrible, say like that of coffee, then greater acceptance may be possible. Also, as toward the 2 hour marathon, drugs that are psychoactive may be of as great a benefit as the physical ones. Not just caffeine and other pl…

Speaking to your question about "what the long term effects of these drugs are": My wife put together a together a pretty interesting video about the "faustian bargain" which is IGF-1 (used as a proxy measure for growth hormone)... video is replete with examples of the effects of low IGF-1/GH or high IGF-1/GH both in animal models and humans. One of the more interesting points in the video is the fact that people wit…

I viewed the video to a half and found enough difference with what I know that I cannot agree with her conclusions. It is more complicated than performance/longevity. Especially when we going to humans from animals.

For example, reaction speed correlates with longevity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079205 Reaction speed needs muscle power and neural signal power, both are supported by IGF-1.

Arm grip in midlife is stronger for centenarians: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21541735

Thus, while entertaining, the video of your wife is too quick to jump to conclusions.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#166

Post by thesz »

thesz wrote: post #165
dpatrick86 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking to your question about "what the long term effects of these drugs are": My wife put together a together a pretty interesting video about the "faustian bargain" which is IGF-1 (used as a proxy measure for growth hormone)... video is replete with examples of the effects of low IGF-1/GH or high IGF-1/GH both in animal models and humans. One of the more interesting points in the video is the fact that people wit…

I viewed the video to a half and found enough difference with what I know that I cannot agree with her conclusions. It is more complicated than performance/longevity. Especially when we going to humans from animals. For example, reaction speed correlates with longevity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16079205 Reaction speed needs muscle power and neural signal power, both are supported by IGF-1. Arm grip in midli…

Why I insist that humans are different.

Number of heart beats per life of regular animal is about 1 billion. Humans average 2 billions. We use different longevity modes than rest of animal kingdom, I think.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#167

Post by thesz »

a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #111
Balgair wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm, I wonder what the long term effects of these drugs are. Medicinal and therapeutic use may be very promising for average people just trying to stay in shape. If the long term effects aren't too terrible, say like that of coffee, then greater acceptance may be possible. Also, as toward the 2 hour marathon, drugs that are psychoactive may be of as great a benefit as the physical ones. Not just caffeine and other pl…

As I understand it the main problem with the androgen anabolic drugs is aromatization. The chemicals tend to wind up as estrogen. Professionals using the drugs pursue careful protocols to limit aromatization; amateurs not so much hence the shrunken dick and bitch tit rumors about 'roids. Contrary to the popular understanding of estrogen as "the female hormone," estrogen compounds are more usefully thought of as dange…

Anabolic steroids stimulate production of eritrocitos. That's how they help recovery and endurance and also that's why they can lead to trombs.

Re: What will it take to run a 2-hour marathon?

#168

Post by irv »

dorfsmay wrote: post #117

> VO2 max (a measure of aerobic fitness) Note that even though we used to be told that we could all increase our VO2 max through trainning, it turns out that only people with a specific set of genes can do so.

in the sense that there is a personal ceiling for you, yes.

but if you've never trained at elite level, then you can almost certainly improve it up to your (personal) ceiling.

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